Go Back   iRV2 Forums > iRV2.com COMMUNITY FORUMS > iRV2.com General Discussion
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-03-2013, 05:08 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Ramblin's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Ford Super Duty Owner
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,253
50A RV to 50A Welder dogbone

I'm about to convert the welder outlet in my shop to a 4 wire RV outlet so I can plug in my coach. Afterwards, I will need to build a dogbone to go back to the welder outlet from the 4 wire RV outlet so that I can plug in my welder when necessary.

The welder outlet is 2 hots and a ground, all #6. There is a bare wire ground conductor in the outlet box that is unused, but connected to the ground bar in the panel along with the white (with green tape marking).

I intend to move the white to the neutral bus in the panel, and hook up the 4 wire outlet in the box, using the previously unused bare ground. I will remove the green tape markings at that time.

I have a 5' length of 6-3 that has a rubber jacket, and three #6 conductors; red black and green. My concern is, the bare wire ground in the outlet box is smaller than #6 gauge. Might be #8 or even #10. I suspect I may overload this conductor if I connect the welder's ground to it.

So, my question is, does the ground conductor for a welder outlet need to be sized to carry 50A? Secondarily, can I wire the welder's ground to the neutral of the RV socket (essentially using it as a ground) since the ground and neutral are bonded in the panel box?
__________________

__________________
2002 National Dolphin LX 6356
Workhorse W-22 chassis
Don't believe everything you think.
Ramblin is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-03-2013, 05:53 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Rich and Cork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,052
This should help you out:

The 50-amp 120/240-volt 3 pole 4
__________________

__________________
2001 34' Alpine Coach
2008 Jeep Rubicon or 2012 Ford F150 4x4 Lariat towds
or a couple of different trailers
Retired in Apple Valley, California
Rich and Cork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 05:58 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
FlyingDiver's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Somewhere....
Posts: 3,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramblin View Post
So, my question is, does the ground conductor for a welder outlet need to be sized to carry 50A? Secondarily, can I wire the welder's ground to the neutral of the RV socket (essentially using it as a ground) since the ground and neutral are bonded in the panel box?
Q1 - No, because the welder is a pure 240V load, so it doesn't need a neutral. And the ground does not have to be sized for the full load because it's only a safety for stray voltage. Your welder should cut off before it gets to a full load.

Q2 - you're not supposed to do that, as far as I know. Just connect it to the ground line.
__________________
2008 King Aire 4562, Spartan K3(GT) w/ Cummins ISX 600
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 5.7L V8 Hemi w/ Blue Ox Aventa LX Tow Bar and baseplate, SMI Air Force One brake
FlyingDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 05:59 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Ramblin's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Ford Super Duty Owner
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich and Cork View Post
This should help you out:

The 50-amp 120/240-volt 3 pole 4

That doesn't really answer my questions, but it did tell me that #8 is OK for 50A runs less than 25 ft. Useful information, and a great addition to my bookmark collection. Thanks!
__________________
2002 National Dolphin LX 6356
Workhorse W-22 chassis
Don't believe everything you think.
Ramblin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 06:04 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Ramblin's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Ford Super Duty Owner
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingDiver View Post
Q1 - No, because the welder is a pure 240V load, so it doesn't need a neutral. And the ground does not have to be sized for the full load because it's only a safety for stray voltage. Your welder should cut off before it gets to a full load.

Q2 - you're not supposed to do that, as far as I know. Just connect it to the ground line.

Excellent, thanks for the info.
__________________
2002 National Dolphin LX 6356
Workhorse W-22 chassis
Don't believe everything you think.
Ramblin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 06:44 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Tony Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Peru heading for Brasilia, Brazil
Posts: 2,117
Sounds like the next post might be along the lines of "Help!!!! I just plugged my new motorhome into my new DIY 50 amp outlet and all the smoke escaped from the converter, TV, sound system, and fridge. Sob!!!!!"
__________________
Tony Lee - International Grey Nomad. Picasa Album - Travel Map
RVs. USA - Airstream Cutter; in Australia - MC8 40' DIY Coach conversion & OKA 4x4 MH; in Germany - Hobby Class C; in S America - F350 with 2500 10.6 Bigfoot camper
Tony Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 06:45 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Ramblin's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Ford Super Duty Owner
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Lee View Post
Sounds like the next post might be along the lines of "Help!!!! I just plugged my new motorhome into my new DIY 50 amp outlet and all the smoke escaped from the converter, TV, sound system, and fridge. Sob!!!!!"
I think not.
__________________
2002 National Dolphin LX 6356
Workhorse W-22 chassis
Don't believe everything you think.
Ramblin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 06:59 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
wa8yxm's Avatar
 
Damon Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 22,821
It is standard for the bare wire ground to be smaller on large current (50 amp) circuits. I like your plan.

On the adapter to the welder.. (Why not just replace the plug on the welder) you need to know if the welder uses 120 volt or not (I assume not) but some 120 devices use 120 volt fans or such) if it does, Hook up hot-hot-neutral, if not hot-hot-ground.
__________________
Home is where I park it!
wa8yxm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 07:02 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Ramblin's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Ford Super Duty Owner
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by wa8yxm View Post
It is standard for the bare wire ground to be smaller on large current (50 amp) circuits. I like your plan.

On the adapter to the welder.. (Why not just replace the plug on the welder) you need to know if the welder uses 120 volt or not (I assume not) but some 120 devices use 120 volt fans or such) if it does, Hook up hot-hot-neutral, if not hot-hot-ground.

I could do that, but I need to be able to take my welder to other locations that have a standard receptacle.
__________________
2002 National Dolphin LX 6356
Workhorse W-22 chassis
Don't believe everything you think.
Ramblin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 09:15 AM   #10
Moderator Emeritus
 
Gary RVRoamer's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Silver Springs, FL. USA
Posts: 18,085
You need to run a neutral to that outlet to get the required 120v for your RV 50A connection. The neutral is a current carrying wire, so must have insulation - you cannot use the existing bare ground as a neutral. Besides, you still need a ground wire in that circuit as well.

Change the outlet to a standard RV 50A model - a NEMA 14/50R. Then make a dogbone to plug the welder into it, using the two 50A hot wires and ground only - nothing to the neutral (which the welder does not use). The dogbone is basically the old 50A welder outlet wired to a NEMA 14/50P plug. Alternatively, just hardwire the old welder outlet to the new outlet, using a separate wall-mounted outlet box. It's probably a code violation to share that circuit way, though, unless you put a transfer switch on it so that only one of the two outlets can receive power at any one time.
__________________
Gary Brinck
Former owner of 2004 American Tradition
Home is in the Ocala Nat'l Forest near Ocala, FL
Summers in Black Mountain, NC
Gary RVRoamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 09:23 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Ramblin's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Ford Super Duty Owner
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary RVRoamer View Post
You need to run a neutral to that outlet to get the required 120v for your RV 50A connection. The neutral is a current carrying wire, so must have insulation - you cannot use the existing bare ground as a neutral. Besides, you still need a ground wire in that circuit as well.

Change the outlet to a standard RV 50A model - a NEMA 14/50R. Then make a dogbone to plug the welder into it, using the two 50A hot wires and ground only - nothing to the neutral (which the welder does not use). The dogbone is basically the old 50A welder outlet wired to a NEMA 14/50P plug. Alternatively, just hardwire the old welder outlet to the new outlet, using a separate wall-mounted outlet box. It's probably a code violation to share that circuit way, though, unless you put a transfer switch on it so that only one of the two outlets can receive power at any one time.

The neutral is there already (being used as a ground, I mentioned it has a green tape marking in it). That will be the neutral for the RV outlet. There is a bare copper ground that is currently unused that will become the ground.
__________________
2002 National Dolphin LX 6356
Workhorse W-22 chassis
Don't believe everything you think.
Ramblin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 09:46 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Tony Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Peru heading for Brasilia, Brazil
Posts: 2,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramblin View Post
I think not.

Perhaps, but in matters electrical, I'm a firm believer that if you have to rely on unverified advice on a public forum, it might be safer for you and the general public and any proper electricians who might come after you, if you left it to licensed experts.
__________________
Tony Lee - International Grey Nomad. Picasa Album - Travel Map
RVs. USA - Airstream Cutter; in Australia - MC8 40' DIY Coach conversion & OKA 4x4 MH; in Germany - Hobby Class C; in S America - F350 with 2500 10.6 Bigfoot camper
Tony Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 10:17 AM   #13
Senior Member
 
Ramblin's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Ford Super Duty Owner
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Lee View Post
Perhaps, but in matters electrical, I'm a firm believer that if you have to rely on unverified advice on a public forum, it might be safer for you and the general public and any proper electricians who might come after you, if you left it to licensed experts.
I am not a 'proper licensed expert electrician', but I am certified by my state and county to perform electrical installations and modifications on my property. I took (and aced) the required tests to gain that certification prior to wiring the house I live in, and all of the outbuildings on my farm. Any new installations I do must adhere to code, and be inspected by the county prior to being energized, just like any 'proper, licensed, expert' electrician. I have a pretty good idea how to properly wire an RV outlet.

My question was very specific, and had absolutely nothing to do with the premise (permanent) wiring. It was: 'Does the ground conductor in a welder circuit need to be sized to carry 50A'. I included the information about the welder to RV outlet conversion to spare the respondents from needing to comment on that part, because I already have that covered.

One person (you) felt the need to respond anyway with snarky remarks unhelpful to the OP (me) and generally wasteful to the community (everyone who had to read it).

I would respectfully request that in the future, you confine your contributions to my threads to relevant information. Your uneducated opinion of my abilities, and your opinion of the validity of advice offered by forum members here do not fall into that category.
__________________
2002 National Dolphin LX 6356
Workhorse W-22 chassis
Don't believe everything you think.
Ramblin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 11:11 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
Tony Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Peru heading for Brasilia, Brazil
Posts: 2,117
The code will have tables showing the size of ground wires relative to either the size/rating of the active conductors or perhaps in some special cases, the rating of the circuit breaker protecting the circuit.

I say again, if you have to ask, then get advice or assistance from a licensed tradesman instead of from a public forum where there is no way to verify the contributors' credentials.. Or since you are fully qualified and accredited, read and understand the relevant sections of the code.
__________________

__________________
Tony Lee - International Grey Nomad. Picasa Album - Travel Map
RVs. USA - Airstream Cutter; in Australia - MC8 40' DIY Coach conversion & OKA 4x4 MH; in Germany - Hobby Class C; in S America - F350 with 2500 10.6 Bigfoot camper
Tony Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.