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Old 07-05-2011, 12:24 AM   #29
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This was my house panel. The pic on the right shows the 3 wires coming from the power company feed; two hots and one ground/neutral (wire on the right with white tape) . The pick on the left shows how the neutrals and grounds from the house circuits are connected. Yes, the ground and neutral wires in the box are connected on the same strip and have the same potential.

I had a problem with the GFI in one of our bathrooms and did some research. What I found was: If the current flow feeding the load [hot wire (+120V)] is not equal to the current flow on the neutral it will trip. An unbalanced hot and neutral means there is leakage not unlike water through a garden hose. If the water going into a garden hose is more than the water coming out the other end are not equal there is a leak. With current flow you don't want to be the leak path.

Back before there were grounds in homes I plugged in and pulled the trigger of my grandfather's old metal cased Milwaukee drill. It ran well but I felt a tingle. I now understand that most likely the old motor's winding's insulation had broke down and had a continuity with the case. This is why power tools without a ground have to be double insulated; those without this insulation have to have a ground.

If I have any errors in this post don't hesitate to correct me. I'm old and still have much to learn.

I hope this will clarify rather than confuse.

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Old 07-05-2011, 09:53 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickO View Post
You can buy a version of the surge protector designed to be hard wired and mounted in your electrical bay. This is what we did and it's out of sight and out of mind.

Rick
I agree. and they are good devices but there is a single reason you might wish not to buy one (Actually two reasons but one of them is a partial)

What happens when you trade in?

Buy a "Portable" and either buy or as I did build, you own Hughes Auto-former install kit.. Let me describe this kit so you know how easy it is to make

Since my rig is a 50 amp (They make a 30 amp version as well for 30 amp rigs) it consists of a standard RV type 50 amp outlet, a plug and a pigtail.

Here are the instructions. NOTE: Careful, if you don't know what you are doing have a pro do it for you, Mistakes can be costly.

Remove SHORE POWER leads from Auto-Transfer switch and transfer to the OUTLET (WHich by the way needs to be either a cord-end type or in a proper box)

Place PLUG on pigtail and hook Pigtail in where Shore Power cord used to be.

Optinally.. You may do this at a place here it's easier to put the pigtail on the outlet side, or cut it in two and use two pigtails.

Now your "portable device" (Be it a surge guard or autoformer) plugs in to the outlet and the plug plugs into the device. All INSIDE your rig, out of sight (of auto-former hating security guards and theives) and out of mind (yours, no way to forget it)

Oh, one chance of forgetting it... When you trade in you pull two plugs, plug one plug into the other outlet and take the Surge Guard, Autoformer, Whatever to the new rig with you, Add plug and socket as before and you are good to go.

Half reason: Easier to remove it for service, They do require perodic replacement of the spike supressor elements
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:35 AM   #31
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Surge protectors proctect from a "surge" or "high voltage". Many people are sold a surge protctor thinking that they are protected by this device. You are protected from high voltage, but, the bigger problem is low voltage.

Low voltage causes your equipment to draw more amperage. More amperage causes wiring to get hot, motors to overheat, etc. This is the one that causes fires, not a voltage surge. Low voltage usually occurs when the campground is full, everyone is using their air conditioners, and the wiring in the campground can't keep up. Or the more usual conditon, bad connections.

Check your own plug, is it burnt, very dark, or corroded. That probably happned when you plugged into that campground that had a bad outlet, burnt, very dark, corroded. Plug a new cord into a bad outlet, and guess what you get, a bad cord/ plug on your rv.

It's kind of like a kid with a bad cold, he passes it on to the next kid who passes it on to another, and so on. Check your plug and cord often. Change it when it looks bad. Save yourself a fire or damage equipment.

I agree 100% I was just at a CG in texoma, high heat, loaded with a/c consumption, couldnt get our ECC to operate properly, just not enough power. the CG maint tech came out checked it out and told me CG is only 120 volts, not the 127 I get at home with no problems and that my 30 amp service was just not enough to run two a/c units. I have the shed system (ECC) and it works beautifully until this CG low power issue. Also, the plug was bad and we replaced it, so that also added to the problem.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:45 PM   #32
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You know the old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words", well take a look at You know the old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words", well take a look at Ten Minutes is All It Took!!! - Fort Fiends....

This is from one of the members from another forum that I follow...

Evidently, the camper in question was a victim of an electrical surge... well you can judge for yourself.
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Lostuzer View Post
This was my house panel. The pic on the right shows the 3 wires coming from the power company feed; two hots and one ground/neutral (wire on the right with white tape) . The pick on the left shows how the neutrals and grounds from the house circuits are connected. Yes, the ground and neutral wires in the box are connected on the same strip and have the same potential.

I had a problem with the GFI in one of our bathrooms and did some research. What I found was: If the current flow feeding the load [hot wire (+120V)] is not equal to the current flow on the neutral it will trip. An unbalanced hot and neutral means there is leakage not unlike water through a garden hose. If the water going into a garden hose is more than the water coming out the other end are not equal there is a leak. With current flow you don't want to be the leak path.

Back before there were grounds in homes I plugged in and pulled the trigger of my grandfather's old metal cased Milwaukee drill. It ran well but I felt a tingle. I now understand that most likely the old motor's winding's insulation had broke down and had a continuity with the case. This is why power tools without a ground have to be double insulated; those without this insulation have to have a ground.

If I have any errors in this post don't hesitate to correct me. I'm old and still have much to learn.

I hope this will clarify rather than confuse.

Prior to reading all these posts I thought I had a minor grasp on electrical flow paths. Seems to be some confusion/confusing thoughts on neutral/return and ground wire. That said, I am in complete agreement with this post. In my humble opinion (really hate acronyms) the ground (bare) wire is just that. Gives a pathway for a short/ground other than a living body holding/touching it and allows trip circuitry to operate off the hot leg. And way back in my day used a rubber glove on the metal handle of the cement mixer (one of the lovely college jobs) when it rained, no ground wire on the motor. Volt meter is a very useful tool!
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Old 08-03-2011, 02:22 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostuzer View Post
This was my house panel. The pic on the right shows the 3 wires coming from the power company feed; two hots and one ground/neutral (wire on the right with white tape) . The pick on the left shows how the neutrals and grounds from the house circuits are connected. Yes, the ground and neutral wires in the box are connected on the same strip and have the same potential.

I had a problem with the GFI in one of our bathrooms and did some research. What I found was: If the current flow feeding the load [hot wire (+120V)] is not equal to the current flow on the neutral it will trip. An unbalanced hot and neutral means there is leakage not unlike water through a garden hose. If the water going into a garden hose is more than the water coming out the other end are not equal there is a leak. With current flow you don't want to be the leak path.

Back before there were grounds in homes I plugged in and pulled the trigger of my grandfather's old metal cased Milwaukee drill. It ran well but I felt a tingle. I now understand that most likely the old motor's winding's insulation had broke down and had a continuity with the case. This is why power tools without a ground have to be double insulated; those without this insulation have to have a ground.

If I have any errors in this post don't hesitate to correct me. I'm old and still have much to learn.

I hope this will clarify rather than confuse.

This is the correct wiring for a service entrance panel in a home, although most electricians would not put two wires under the same screw. The reason both the neutral & ground are connected together is this is the only place in a wiring system that it is allowed.

In a sub panel (a panel fed from the service entrance panel) the ground & neutrals MUST be kept separate. Your RV is treated as a sub panel, that is the neutrals & grounds must be kept separate.

Using a ground lifter defeats the entire purpose of the grounding system -if there is a fault to ground from the hot side the low resistance connection provided by the ground connection at the service entrance will cause the circuit breaker of fuse to open, but only if the ground connection is continuous. If there is a low current fault to ground, a low resistance ground connection will carry most of the current, often preventing a "tickle" or shock when touching the frame (or anything connected to it) and the earth, again, only if the ground connection is continuous. The ground lifter breaks that connection resulting is a shock hazard.
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Old 08-03-2011, 02:34 PM   #35
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Surge protectors monitor and react to more than just high and low voltage.

I have a Progressive EMS-HW50C and it monitors a dozen or more parameters. I wouldn't leave home without it

http://http://www.progressiveindustr.../ems_hw50c.htm

The above link will give details.
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Old 08-03-2011, 04:21 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by vermilye View Post
This is the correct wiring for a service entrance panel in a home, although most electricians would not put two wires under the same screw. The reason both the neutral & ground are connected together is this is the only place in a wiring system that it is allowed.

In a sub panel (a panel fed from the service entrance panel) the ground & neutrals MUST be kept separate. Your RV is treated as a sub panel, that is the neutrals & grounds must be kept separate.

Using a ground lifter defeats the entire purpose of the grounding system -if there is a fault to ground from the hot side the low resistance connection provided by the ground connection at the service entrance will cause the circuit breaker of fuse to open, but only if the ground connection is continuous. If there is a low current fault to ground, a low resistance ground connection will carry most of the current, often preventing a "tickle" or shock when touching the frame (or anything connected to it) and the earth, again, only if the ground connection is continuous. The ground lifter breaks that connection resulting is a shock hazard.
I am always learning (or trying to) and need some more help on the information you are giving here. When you say using a "ground lifter", what do you refer to? Is that similar to removing the ground wire and only having a hot and return line? Hopefully not sounding like a goof here, but do have a lot of respect of electricity.
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:18 PM   #37
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Yes. This is what it looks like:



Although there are a few places they can be safely used, disconnecting the ground connection to an RV is not one of them!
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:22 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by DuaneMiller View Post

You know the old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words", well take a look at Ten Minutes is All It Took!!! - Fort Fiends....

This is from one of the members from another forum that I follow...

Evidently, the camper in question was a victim of an electrical surge... well you can judge for yourself.
If the owner of this RV which was destroyed by this tragic event had previously invested $350 in a Progressive HW50C unit, I believe that he would still have his RV.

For those that think it can't happen to them, you are wrong and it can. I have read so many posts on this forum about the WASTE of money on devices that provide electrical and/or surge protection. I hope that those individuals will see this thread and specific post to observe for themselves what could happen to them.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Dr4Film View Post
If the owner of this RV which was destroyed by this tragic event had previously invested $350 in a Progressive HW50C unit, I believe that he would still have his RV.

For those that think it can't happen to them, you are wrong and it can. I have read so many posts on this forum about the WASTE of money on devices that provide electrical and/or surge protection. I hope that those individuals will see this thread and specific post to observe for themselves what could happen to them.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.
This was the main reason that I posted this.... I know it spoke volumes to me....

As we all travel all over the country visiting campgrounds that have electrical systems in states of various repair, some excellent to poor at best. Like it said in the link that I posted, it only took 10 minutes for that trailer to burn up... Luckily it happened during the day and not in the middle of the night while everyone was sleeping. The outcome could have been much worse... I for one will pony up the money for another layer of protection.
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:01 AM   #40
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For those in the market for a "surge protector".
As eluded to before, be sure you know what you are getting. A simple surge protector just won't cut it.
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