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Old 08-02-2012, 11:16 AM   #71
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:18 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Midniteoyl View Post
As I said, IF they say "We require a picture of your Coach WITH EVERY RESERVATION to make sure it complies with our local safety standards.", then sure, it would be cool. But, to ask 'What year is your coach" and then ONLY ask for the pic after they find its 10 or more years old, IS discrimination.
So then the NYS Dept. of Health is discriminating when they require anyone selling tobacco products to check only a small percentage of the population?

"If you are not sure of the person's age and he or she appears to be under 25 years old, you must request and review proof of age."

A business, operating on private property, can set down whatever rules they wish on people entering their lands. If people don't follow those rules they have every right to toss you out or refuse you entry in the first place.

Just like hotels & motels evicting rowdy customers, it's completely within their right to do so.

Things like housing rules are completely moot to this discussion, those laws are to prevent a landlord arbitrarily evicting someone from their home.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:30 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by FW5000DRIVER View Post
When someone says no to someone it doesn't always mean you are having your constitutional rights violated. It's a private business and you have to meet the criteria they are looking for. It will not change, it will always be that way.
Aren't most businesses a private enterprise? Private businesses do not have an unfettered right to conduct business as they see fit. Not all criteria are reasonable or fair and in some cases, those criteria are in fact illegal.

It would be interesting to see how these owners would react to a 2004 in horrible condition. I think the poster that said it is an all or none screening proposition got it right. You can't judge things by a simple photograph. I could easily send a photograph of a few years previous. How would they know? What's more, what other disqualifications are these owners prepared to use to restrict traffic? They cater to travellers. Travellers come in all shapes and sizes. If someone is not maintaining the site or violating quiet hours, then evict them. It is as simple as that. I recently was at a CG where the most obnoxious camper in the site was in a very late model 5th Wheel. I would happily have taken the older less modern rig as a neighbour rather than this guy with the music, the loud voices, noisy dogs and generally annoying behaviour. The rig condition may say something or may say nothing, especially these days.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:31 AM   #74
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Not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, but... isn't there is a difference between discriminating against a human being trying to rent a space (be it a campground or house) and setting rules on vehicles? Last I checked, vehicles don't have Constitutional rights.

Saying YOU as a person couldn't rent because of some factor (genetic, religious etc) is illegal. Saying your vehicle isn't allowed... that's a different issue isn't it?

If I wanted to open a campground and say "Only Prevost, 5 years or less, painted sky-blue and towing Lexus are allowed" isn't that my right? However, if I added "and driven only by... <insert religious/genetic/maritial qualifier>" THEN I'd be illegal. IMHO. One is perhaps a lousy business model, the other is illegal.

Fancy restaurant requires a jacket/tie... others saying "no shoes/no shirt/no Service" are NOT refusing to seat someone based on "illegal criteria", just setting rules.

Not defending, not approving pictures etc... just saying there is a difference between the two. Asking for photo of old vehicle is one thing, asking for photo of driver is another. Campgrounds can set their rules, market will determine if the rules make sense and they stay in business or not.

Need an Constitutional Amendment... "You have the Right to a flat camping space with water view, full hookups, room for slides and awnings, and neighbors that agree and participate with your idea of Perfect Camping, all for less than $20/day" I guess.
Yessir, but its still discrimination.. My original statement was based on the fact that this kind is legal..
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:38 AM   #75
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Hi Jim,

You've made statements saying that many things we're discussing here are illegal. Do you have laws to cite to support this? I assume we're talking federal law here. I looked through the HUD link you provided and didn't find anything that seemed to support such a broad definition of "illegal discrimination".

Rick
Your right IF you follow certain guidelines, like ADVERTISING the fact you are a 55 and older community,, having a certain amount of dwelling occupied by 55 or older only, etc.. Most of the one that have been sued have lost because they didnt follow the rules and were, in fact, discriminating.

Again, what the CG owners are doing may not be illegal, but it is discriminatory. If you want 10yrs or newer coaches, you should SAY SO in your advertisement. You should have EVERYBODY send in a pic of the rig with the reservation request. To NOT ask and then SPECIFICALLY target certain people is discrimination.

Hud doesnt say anything about me saying "No ugly people", but if I tried to use that, I would be sued. By the same token, if I LOOKED at you and then decided I needed to ask your age, that would be discrimination.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:56 AM   #76
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Again, what the CG owners are doing may not be illegal, but it is discriminatory..
Fair enough. Discrimination is a word which has taken on a negative connotation because of illegal picking and choosing PEOPLE based on a list of legally defined criteria... but I don't think the age of one's coach is on that list.

Many investment advisers won't accept clients with portfolios below a certain dollar figure. Totally legal.

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Old 08-02-2012, 12:17 PM   #77
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I really don't care about the legality of the discrimination, or the rights of small businesses to make arbitrary requirements.

I am saddened that there seems to be an unstated prejudice that anyone with an RV more than 10 years old is substandard and should be excluded from some parks. I've met very rich people and very poor people, and many in between. Some have been wonderful, caring, interesting people, some have been fecal sphincters, I really can't determine by the age of their vehicles an accurate way to predetermine what they will be. If these CG (excuse me, RV Park) owners have figured out that owning a 10 year old RV is the cut off for offensive people, I'd like to see the research.

All of you that have RVs built in 2003, get ready for it, you are about to be downgraded.
Well said.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:49 PM   #78
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Fair enough. Discrimination is a word which has taken on a negative connotation because of illegal picking and choosing PEOPLE based on a list of legally defined criteria... but I don't think the age of one's coach is on that list.

Many investment advisers won't accept clients with portfolios below a certain dollar figure. Totally legal.

Rick
Agreed. I'm mostly objecting to the word "discrimination" as some are using it in the legal sense and the word has become one that implies evil action and wrong-doing. If anything, I'm standing up for the right of ANY property owner to set their own rules within the law.

Setting an age limit on vehicles is not against the law. It is not discrimination against any person because anyone is able, finances permitting, to purchase a newer vehicle and park in the campground in question.

You have the right to build your own campground, decide that you want a classic theme look to the park, and not allow any RVs NEWER than say 1980. That's your right as a business person.

Heck, many campgrounds don't allow me in because of my 40' length. They COULD redesign the park to allow longer units, they chose not to do so. It's not discriminating against me. It's a business choice. I've seen other parks that are "Class A" only, and even those with the new Super-C's costing $500k aren't allowed in.

Again, I'm not declaring for/against the age limit, the photo requirement etc. Just saying that painting a campground owner who does so as "discriminating" (hence evil, illegal, immoral or whatever) isn't right. Vote with your dollars, go or don't go, and those campgrounds will live or die by their rules and business decisions. Look at my sig... I'm only a couple years away myself.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:51 PM   #79
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:33 PM   #80
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I am saddened that there seems to be an unstated prejudice that anyone with an RV more than 10 years old is substandard and should be excluded from some parks.
I do not have any idea about rv age, but when DW and I rent one of our rental properties, a part of our decision about tenant acceptability is based on the age and condition of their auto. Yes, we discriminate against people who drive older or obviously poorly maintained autos. Our experience is that we are more likely to have a problem tenant when they have older autos. We can, and do, make exceptions and we are possibly losing some really good people, but we have to set criteria in what we feel is our best interest. RV parks are, IMO, setting criteria that best suit their needs.
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Old 08-02-2012, 02:58 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by sirpurrcival

Aren't most businesses a private enterprise? Private businesses do not have an unfettered right to conduct business as they see fit. Not all criteria are reasonable or fair and in some cases, those criteria are in fact illegal.

It would be interesting to see how these owners would react to a 2004 in horrible condition. I think the poster that said it is an all or none screening proposition got it right. You can't judge things by a simple photograph. I could easily send a photograph of a few years previous. How would they know? What's more, what other disqualifications are these owners prepared to use to restrict traffic? They cater to travellers. Travellers come in all shapes and sizes. If someone is not maintaining the site or violating quiet hours, then evict them. It is as simple as that. I recently was at a CG where the most obnoxious camper in the site was in a very late model 5th Wheel. I would happily have taken the older less modern rig as a neighbour rather than this guy with the music, the loud voices, noisy dogs and generally annoying behaviour. The rig condition may say something or may say nothing, especially these days.
Have you ever seen a fat NFL cheerleader? It's a business, they can discriminate or legally they set rules that prevent certain people from obtaining access or entrance. As long as it applies to all races and genders, or in this case "all RV's over 10 years old" it is not discrimination.
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Old 08-02-2012, 03:00 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by jzick

I do not have any idea about rv age, but when DW and I rent one of our rental properties, a part of our decision about tenant acceptability is based on the age and condition of their auto. Yes, we discriminate against people who drive older or obviously poorly maintained autos. Our experience is that we are more likely to have a problem tenant when they have older autos. We can, and do, make exceptions and we are possibly losing some really good people, but we have to set criteria in what we feel is our best interest. RV parks are, IMO, setting criteria that best suit their needs.
It's not discrimination that RV just failed to meet the criteria to gain entrance.
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Old 08-02-2012, 04:12 PM   #83
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Old 08-02-2012, 04:39 PM   #84
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