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Old 11-20-2008, 10:22 AM   #281
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no offense taken...my question was just that, a question...so far you have not provided an answer ..statistical or otherwise .You have tried to illustrate your point by using anecdotal statements "Also, 85% of all stats are made up"... I sense a statistic You believe in there ..is that one, part of the 85% that are made up or is it true because you believe it ..Don't get me wrong I don't care one way or the other if you feel the need to carry a weapon,what I do care about is the fact that the vast majority of weapon wielders (on either side )have an agenda that I don't ascribe to
Its like I used to tell my son when he started to get facial hair and thought it would look cool to let it grow on his face rather than shave ..Just because you can(the constitution) doesn't mean you should(grow hair)
I choose to prepare for and live life rather than prepare for "risks"
From your comments Can I assume you don't swim or go to the doctor!!!
And since you seem to be fond of holding forth on the lack of accuracy in statistics ..why do you keep making them up in support of your position i.e.
"More people die from med mal than guns. More kids are harmed by swimming pools than guns for any period assessed."I want to re iterate that I have not taken offense at any of this and I also want to assue you that I am not attacking you ..I simply enjoy a good discussion and you seem to be a worthy participant
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:23 AM   #282
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[quote]Originally posted by FatDog:

Quote:
(Tboh) ... I think you'll find there are no statistics that help clarify any need. ...
Quote:
Tboh, ... and that is exactly why the question had been posed by Horatio54,
....and i thought it was a good question, one that didn't need to be answered with namecalling and generalizations from you.

I have wondered that same thing many times myself. I quit carrying when RV'ing for the most part because of my answer to myself of that same exact question.

and your "weak ... hoplophobia"s ???
No, i just decided to keep my 9 guns at home in thier safes, even the small Kimber 1911 and the bigger 870, because ..
- i generally feel safe out there, and,
- we tended to have cocktail hours while out there and i didn't want the two to mix

safe Mike who enjoys supportive conversations
Hey FatDog,

Namecalling and generalizations? I must be reading things differently. And you too protest too much, I don't know anything about FatDog and firearms... Although here there are two people that ahve chosen to dissarm and are looking for justification through stats. That in itself is interesting as Stats are irrelevant in this risk. You are in a mobile rig in a place not known to you, there are people that will kill you for your shoes let alone the emergency cash in your wallet.

Again, There was no name calling intended. Although you reading 'name calling' into someone describing the issue is interesting.

To the point. Weakness and Hoplophopia are linked. Would you equate hoplophobia, an unreasonable fear of guns, with strength?

Bottom line. To your post. There are many reasons to carry and many not to. The big difference in your choice and mine is I've chosen to carry where as you have chosen not to, that's all. there is no right or wrong.

Who's right? We will never know but you say 'feel' comfortable enough sans guns.

I chose not to consider my feelings when planning for safety. I know that crime happens when you least expect it. It also can happen to me.

Me. I'm stricken with the inability to fight close in due to a medical issue. I can't trust my arms and knees to do what I tell them in a crisis. The cane is a give away to the two legged goblins. If I can act, I have to do so fast and decisively. I've got 3' high ones in the RV and cannot abdicate my role to keep them safe. So I always carry.

I'm tuned to the realities of the world we live in due to my work. The risk to your life is out there. Bad people get mobile to evade the law. If you find solace in the fact there is not so much crime reported in vacation areas, consider who benefits by the lack of the report. Does anyone honestly think these canp grounds are crime free? Ever seen a sign at a campground noting the last assault or major bear attack? See any yellow police line arround the next spot?

Does anyone on the road need a gun? I can answer that question with this test:

Anyone that believes being dissarmed makes them safer, and wants to prove it, put a Large sign on your rig saying "This is a gun free RV" or wear a T saying "Proud to be anti gun" when you are fuling up

Well I bet no one will do it because they are protected by the perception that people and RV'ers are armed. The fact crooks don't come in at night is likely due to the fear you are armed. A sign as such would expose you to risk.

As to hoplophobe describing someone that chooses not to have a gun, well that's silly. That you are a gun owner that is offended by it is ironic too. Anyone who drinks and makes sure there are no guns is a responsible guy, FatDog.
Best
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:32 AM   #283
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I just read this and I have decided to retract my worthy participant line ...I'm out
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:38 AM   #284
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Quote:
Originally posted by horatio54:
no offense taken...my question was just that, a question...so far you have not provided an answer ..statistical or otherwise .You have tried to illustrate your point by using anecdotal statements "Also, 85% of all stats are made up"... I sense a statistic You believe in there ..is that one, part of the 85% that are made up or is it true because you believe it ..Don't get me wrong I don't care one way or the other if you feel the need to carry a weapon,what I do care about is the fact that the vast majority of weapon wielders (on either side )have an agenda that I don't ascribe to
Its like I used to tell my son when he started to get facial hair and thought it would look cool to let it grow on his face rather than shave ..Just because you can(the constitution) doesn't mean you should(grow hair)
I choose to prepare for and live life rather than prepare for "risks"
From your comments Can I assume you don't swim or go to the doctor!!!
And since you seem to be fond of holding forth on the lack of accuracy in statistics ..why do you keep making them up in support of your position i.e.
"More people die from med mal than guns. More kids are harmed by swimming pools than guns for any period assessed."I want to re iterate that I have not taken offense at any of this and I also want to assue you that I am not attacking you ..I simply enjoy a good discussion and you seem to be a worthy participant
Thanks for that. See smart people can have divergent viewpoints. That 85% thing is an old joke BTW. It's actually closer to 87%.

While I have recently seen the stats on the med mal and swimming pools. I don't have them handy. It is true that more children die by pool drowning than to by firearms in any sample.

As to your son and Can vs should. That's a great arguement for carrying a firearm while on the road. Is your right. Some read it as their duty. In any event, it is a God given right that should not be easily dismissed.
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:13 AM   #285
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Quote:
Originally posted by horatio54:
I just read this and I have decided to retract my worthy participant line ...I'm out
Interesting. I thought we reconciled. Once again, I tink you are reading some kind of 'attack' on your belief system in me telling you the statistics you seek don't exist. I'm not Not giving them to you, .. They don'e exist. The best you can do is find individual incidents on the subject as No One can record accurately, attempted or potential crimes. The use of a firearm in self defense is not a crime therefore not reportable to anyone.

Also, that you chooses to ignore a risk and hope for the best and are seemingly upset by our reasonable banter,.. Please accept all due apologies sir. No personal ref intended. Best of luck to you. I hope you stay safe forever. That goes for those that are Hoplophobic too.

And here is a little of the statistics I spoke of earlier. I can source all the data if you wish but this gives the skinny:

Myth: Accidental gun fatalities are a serious problem.

Fact: Firearm misuse causes only a small number of accidental deaths in the U.S.202

For example, compared to accidental death from firearms, you are:
• Four times more likely to burn to death or drown,
• 17 times more likely to be poisoned,
• 19 times more likely to fall, and
• 53 times more likely to die in an automobile accident.

Fact: In 2001, there were only 65 accidental gun deaths for children under age 13. About 11
times as many children die from drowning.203

Fact: In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages
0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times for ages 0-5.204

202 2001, Center for Disease Control, WISQARS
203 Ibid
204 National Center for Health Statistics, and the National Spa and Pool Institute

---

Fact: Medical mistakes kill 400,000 people per year –
the equivalent of almost three fully loaded Boeing 747 jet crashes per day – or about 286 times the rate of all accidental firearm
deaths.205

This translates into 1 in 6 doctors causing
an accidental death, and 1 in 56,666 gun owners doing the same.

Fact: Only 3% of gun deaths are from accidents,
and some insurance investigations indicate that
many of these may not be accidents after all.206

Fact: Around 2,000 patients each year – six per day – are accidentally killed or injured in
hospitals by registered nurses.207

205 Medical death statistics from Dr. David Lawrence, CEO Kaiser Permanente. Gun deaths 1993, CDC report
206 Gary Kleck, “Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control”, 1997, Aldine de Gruyter at 293-324
207 Chicago Tribune report, Sept 10, 2000
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:30 AM   #286
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Incredibly interesting discussion, but this note is back to the topic (sorry).

We do not currently carry, but it is on our list of things to do before we start full-timing in the next year.

We've made our choice of tool, and plan to train before we take it home and regularly thereafter.

Steve
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Old 11-22-2008, 06:33 AM   #287
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I don't consider it anyone else's business as to whether or not I carry a firearm in my motorhome.
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Old 11-22-2008, 06:47 AM   #288
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Do what you want to do. This country was built upon citizens having the right to arm or not arm. Those who wish to arm, should not be ridiculed by those who choose not to. It is a personal choice, and should be left at that! May all of you enjoy safe, carefree RV'ing, but the Boogie Man does exist.....
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Old 11-22-2008, 06:59 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally posted by porscheracer:
I don't consider it anyone else's business as to whether or not I carry a firearm in my motorhome.
Ditto!
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:21 AM   #290
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Yup!
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:36 PM   #291
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Quote:
After 32 years in Law Enforcement, I can tell you that there are LOTS of threats out there that you have no perception of. As RV'ers, we travel among them daily, and may never know that we were at risk. IF you decide to carry a gun, get training. Then, unless you are absolutely certain that you could use it to defend yourself or another, do not carry one. All you will be doing is bringing a gun to your assault, which will be taken away from you and used against you in all probability.
Never use a weapon to intervene in a property crime, as it will get you arrested. The only reason to use deadly force is to protect yourself or another who is in IMMEDIATE danger of serious bodily harm, and has no avenue of escape. Think twice, know your limitations.
Also, count me as an ALWAYS.


Texas Law might be a little different:
9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:59 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by vaughn View Post
One who is not "parinoid" surely does not need things like spare tires, auto liability ins., fire extinguishers etc, etc,. I got bought my first car in 1950 and being parinoid, I have carried auto ins. ever since and have not paid a liability claim yet, so that must prove I do not need auto ins. Being parinoid, I have carried a fire ext. in my rig for at least 30 years, and have not needed it, so I must be parinoid to go on carrying such things, because not having needed them for all those years is surely proof I never will need them.
Guess I should go toss the spare tire and the fire ext. and cancel my ins.

Vaughn
Well said; I will add to that; those that haven't been ill for awhile should drop their health insurance.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:21 PM   #293
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Put me in the ALWAYS catagory.

I have been a military man, a peace officer and now own a gun store and range. It is my firm belief, as mentioned before, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 and that it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!!

And again, another reason to love this country, we have varying opinions on this subject and can discuss them all, and I respect them all.

Remember, guns don't kill, people kill. Outlaw them and only outlaws will have them.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:46 PM   #294
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I carry a handgun in my rig for protection. I put 30 years in the military and was a LEO for 12 years. I feel I can judge instantly whether deadly force is my only option and I would not hesitate to use it providing the circumstances justified my action. The analogy of being judged by 12 or carried by 6 is something the sheriff I worked for said many times and it made sense to me.
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