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Old 02-12-2014, 09:12 PM   #29
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Agree, the lying is the problem. They don't look at it that way, its just a tactic to them. I have walked on deals on cars for similar 'tactics'. Once walked out and went down the street and bought the same vehicle at another dealer within an hour.
When we were shopping for a car for me we looked at and got the price on a used PT Cruiser. By the time we got to the finance guys office the price had gone up. Thom asked how much were they going for new and since it was not a Chrysler dealer they did not know. He then asked for their phone book and called the Chrysler dealer and asked them about one with the options I wanted. They were ecstatic that we were calling from a competing dealer. They were more than happy to sell me a new one for less than the used one and for the exact price that was agreed to over the phone. The dealer we were at were not happy but oh well that's what you get for adding on to the agreed to price.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:14 AM   #30
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Yes, It is a matter of principle. The sign on the RV read "Show special" 389,000 (plus tax, title, and plates) That was their posted price- I didn't talk them down $50,000 from the MSRP- their advertised price. We have 6% sales tax and title is $15. I shook hands on the deal and I got out the checkbook. 45 min. later they came out with the paperwork with a $400 doc fee added on. That means that the price was 389,400, not the 389,000 on the sign. Then they lied to me claiming that amount was mandated by the state of Michigan. Now if they had priced the RV 389,400, I would still have bought the RV- I wasn't dickering on price. They also added on $50 to fill the propane tanks. If they had a sign on it for $408,405 OUT THE DOOR, I would have bought it. But you don't shake my hand on 389,000 plus tax, title, and plates then add on another $400 doc fee when it comes time to write the check. I also did like being told that the price included all setup and I could head south from the dealership, then have them charge me $50 for propane. The $50 was fine, IF they had told me up front. Doc fees are just another way of lying.
Thanks for the extra information. It is clear now. I probably would done the same thing.

It is not the $100.00, but rather the lies that the dealer presented. It would raise a very large red flag with me also.

If the dealer lies BEFORE the sale, what will happen when I bring it in for warranty work or even regular service? They have already proven themselves to be unreliable.
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:05 PM   #31
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My favorite was purchase of a scooter DW wanted for driving around the campgrounds. Nice little scooter advertised at $2,000 + T & L. Then an out the door price of $3200 shows up. $400 for doc fees, $500 for prep fees. After re-hinging my jaw I offered a take or leave $50 for doc and $150 for prep. Apparently business had been slow as they accepted it. I don't mind someone making a reasonable profit, but hiding pure profit as something else crosses my ethical boundaries.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:58 PM   #32
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CGS your wrong. there has been precedence set. You wont find a dealer in the state of Illinois that will sell you a motorvehicle without it, and at the state maximum.
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:11 PM   #33
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From what I understand about document fees, is that if a dealer charges 1 customer a document fee, they have to charge ALL customers a document fee.

If the dealer does not specifically state the document fees up front, I would just have them take the fees off the cost of the unit and let them absorb it that way.
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:30 PM   #34
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So what did you do, go to another dealer and buy one? I am not sure I could have walked away after spending the time and effort to shop, inspect, kick the tires, look everything over top to bottom and say this $389,000 plus TTP MH is exactly what I want and I feel I am getting a great deal on a beautiful new MH. Its mine I am ready to close the deal and head South. Granted the Doc fee was not mentioned, but $400 on "principle" to walkaway from the $389,000 plus TTL MH that you had decided on. You are stronger than me. I might have fussed about it and tried to get them to throw something else into the deal like a full tank of diesel or something. But in any event I am on my way to FL in my new MH
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:42 PM   #35
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CGS your wrong. there has been precedence set. You wont find a dealer in the state of Illinois that will sell you a motorvehicle without it, and at the state maximum.
You may be correct that every dealer in the state will add in a doc fee, but I still say that is their Choice. If I bought your dealership, I would bet that I could post signs around the showroom and service area "Starting April 1 our doc fee will be $0" Then on April1 never charge a doc fee. And I would bet that the "state" would not come in and tell me I "HAVE" to charge that mandatory doc fee. I chose 4/1 because that would be more then 30 days, which I think would be considered a reasonable lead time.

As far as your first statement The first ad I grabbed from the internet...


Zeiser Kia Wood River
1911 East Edwardsville Road, Wood River, IL 62095
Contact Dealer at: 1-877-912-2250

Zeiser Kia Wood River is the home of the "Ultimate Buying Experience"! No Gimmicks, No high pressure, and NO Doc Fee!!

Like I said, "any amount up to..." Any could be zero.
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:46 PM   #36
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You may be correct that every dealer in the state will add in a doc fee, but I still say that is their Choice. If I bought your dealership, I would bet that I could post signs around the showroom and service area "Starting April 1 our doc fee will be $0" Then on April1 never charge a doc fee. And I would bet that the "state" would not come in and tell me I "HAVE" to charge that mandatory doc fee. I chose 4/1 because that would be more then 30 days, which I think would be considered a reasonable lead time.

As far as your first statement The first ad I grabbed from the internet...


Zeiser Kia Wood River
1911 East Edwardsville Road, Wood River, IL 62095
Contact Dealer at: 1-877-912-2250

Zeiser Kia Wood River is the home of the "Ultimate Buying Experience"! No Gimmicks, No high pressure, and NO Doc Fee!!

Like I said, "any amount up to..." Any could be zero.
I think that the practice of charging or not charging a document fee is based upon the calendar year, not a 30 day time frame. So if a dealer charges 1 customer a doc fee, they have to charge all customers a doc fee - but like others have stated, just get the dealer to find another way to refund the doc fee in the deal - a reduction on sales price, a pre-paid fuel card, etc
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:57 PM   #37
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Don,

No not yet. Dad has been having some real bad headaches the last few days, So I called off the "fun" I'm a worrier, Dad won't be able to travel for a couple of months anyway. Tomorrow is another MRI, then next week a Dr. Visit. We have been told by a couple of Drs that this has noting to do the the surgery, its just sinus- its just worse for Dad because they had tools stuck up there.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:19 PM   #38
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Don,

No not yet. Dad has been having some real bad headaches the last few days, So I called off the "fun" I'm a worrier, Dad won't be able to travel for a couple of months anyway. Tomorrow is another MRI, then next week a Dr. Visit. We have been told by a couple of Drs that this has noting to do the the surgery, its just sinus- its just worse for Dad because they had tools stuck up there.
Huh? Wrong thread?
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:40 PM   #39
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No, I was just responding to ADONH's question if I bought an RV from some other dealer.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:44 PM   #40
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:06 PM   #41
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I think that the practice of charging or not charging a document fee is based upon the calendar year, not a 30 day time frame. So if a dealer charges 1 customer a doc fee, they have to charge all customers a doc fee - but like others have stated, just get the dealer to find another way to refund the doc fee in the deal - a reduction on sales price, a pre-paid fuel card, etc
You may be right, we have no businesses in IL. so If I bought a dealership their I my have to wait to the end of the year to get rid of it. Or I may be able to do it at once because I would be a "new" dealer. Doesn't really matter when, it just the point that even in IL, the Doc fee is because the dealers Chose to charge it. And I choose not to pay it. The same logic that allows Doc fees could be applied to others in the sales process. Dealers have to pay a porter to move your new RV around so why not a $50 porter fee? Or a $200 salesperson fee?

I feel most dealers don't understand how much customers resent being billed a "doc fee" Maybe its an over reaction to the Sunday newspaper adds where you can get a new GC for only $160/mo. But no one in the world can actually buy that car at that payment with the down payment they list in the add. I mean they KNOW that 6% sales tax has to be added to that price so there is going to be payments on $2400 more added in. Then you have to qualify for a bunch of different rebates. there is a good chance that no one person can qualify for ALL the rebates (how many people are both a Chy. retiree and active military?)

Dad sold off our car dealerships some time ago, but I know when he first took them over he put in "out the door" pricing and sales went up at once.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:13 PM   #42
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You may be right, we have no businesses in IL. so If I bought a dealership their I my have to wait to the end of the year to get rid of it. Or I may be able to do it at once because I would be a "new" dealer. Doesn't really matter when, it just the point that even in IL, the Doc fee is because the dealers Chose to charge it. And I choose not to pay it. The same logic that allows Doc fees could be applied to others in the sales process. Dealers have to pay a porter to move your new RV around so why not a $50 porter fee? Or a $200 salesperson fee?

I feel most dealers don't understand how much customers resent being billed a "doc fee" Maybe its an over reaction to the Sunday newspaper adds where you can get a new GC for only $160/mo. But no one in the world can actually buy that car at that payment with the down payment they list in the add. I mean they KNOW that 6% sales tax has to be added to that price so there is going to be payments on $2400 more added in. Then you have to qualify for a bunch of different rebates. there is a good chance that no one person can qualify for ALL the rebates (how many people are both a Chy. retiree and active military?)

Dad sold off our car dealerships some time ago, but I know when he first took them over he put in "out the door" pricing and sales went up at once.
I don't disagree with you at all ...

I really hate it when I see a dealer advertising - "get a new car for only $99/mo" .. but when you pause the TV commercial and read the fine print, it requires a down payment of $15,000

As the saying goes .. caveat emptor
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