"Document fee" when buying from a dealer.

[Superslif]

I always have a folder in my hand when negotiating. Some times the salesman will say let me see what numbers you came up with...I'll say NO...these are my numbers...I just want to see one "Number" and I'll write one check.

We call it a cash deal but we actually mean a check....But there was a member hear I know who negotiated a "cash" deal on a new MH. When he came in for delivery and opened up a briefcase full money the dealer didn't know what to do... What my $$$ no good...

[djbmsu]

I personally commend you
At our closing There was a $500 PDI fee and where you wanted to tell the owner what do with the document fee............. I did !
The owner said he would wave the fee so I asked then you mean there was no fee then in the first place or that you were going to personally write a check to pay the PDI fee ?

[Grimesy]

Don't you know that dealers only have stupid customers. When they ask "How much do you want to pay?" I give them an off the wall answer and they will then ask "Where did you get that Figure"? "Why do you ask stupid questions"? They walk amoung us and worst of all they vote.

Don G

[JohnT]

After reading this thread, I went back to check on my "out the door price". The price was not adjusted. The break down was cost of rig, the sales tax (6% in MI) and registration fee ($15).

No PDI charge or document charge or any other charge. I'm happy!

[cgswss]

Not long ago, My Dad walked away from a deal on a new BMW. He was trading in a car and they had shook on a deal (which did not include a doc fee). When they came out with the paper work, there was "clean up fee" of $200 on the used car. Dad had the car detailed inside and out BEFORE they looked at it. This was so petty because they were giving him $48,000 for his trade. So they thought they had to deduct $200 on that size deal? So stupid. Made my sales guy happy because he also sold beemers. Of course his beemers have defective driver's side windows that fall out when careful, caring Sons are using the car. (so I guess that will teach hime to pay the clean up fee next time)

Walt

[mojoracing]

In Illinois, doc fees are mandatory. The amount charged is regulated and it goes up a couple bucks every year. Right now it is 166 and change. I will add that when we negotiate an out the door figure with a customer, we figure it in, we don't add it on top of the figure. A little background on how it came to be. Dealers would charge it when they could. Some people paid it, others didnt. There was a class action lawsuit brought by someone that paid it saying it was discriminatory. End result was the plaintiff won but the state saw fit that the dealers could charge a reasonable fee and they regulated it and now every deal must reflect a doc fee. My first year in the business it was 36.00, today as I said it is up to 166.00. I assume most states don't regulate it.

[cgswss]

Originally Posted by mojoracing

In Illinois, doc fees are mandatory. The amount charged is regulated and it goes up a couple bucks every year. Right now it is 166 and change. I will add that when we negotiate an out the door figure with a customer, we figure it in, we don't add it on top of the figure. A little background on how it came to be. Dealers would charge it when they could. Some people paid it, others didnt. There was a class action lawsuit brought by someone that paid it saying it was discriminatory. End result was the plaintiff won but the state saw fit that the dealers could charge a reasonable fee and they regulated it and now every deal must reflect a doc fee. My first year in the business it was 36.00, today as I said it is up to 166.00. I assume most states don't regulate it.

In Michigan there is a limit on the max doc fee. some dealers claim it is mandatory. I went to the Illinois attorney general site and got this:



Taxes, Title, and Doc Fees
Under Illinois law, a dealer may add to the contract a "documentary fee" for processing documents and
performing services relating to the closing of the sale, as well as taxes, license, and title fees. However, the
documentary fee is illegal if it exceeds $150.002
. Consumers should read all documents carefully to
protect their money and avoid paying more than is necessary for a new vehicle.

THe key is "may" not "Must". Id be interested in seeing something that says "must charge".

This is another example about the max amount being raised. The important part is "any amount up to" any amount could be zero. BUT the fee MUST be the same on all sales
December 21, 2012
The maximum amount that Illinois dealers can charge in 2013 for documentary preparation fees is $164.30, the Illinois attorney general’s office announced Dec. 14.

The $2.91 increase over the 2012 maximum fee reflects a 1.8 percent rise in the federal Consumer Price Index for the 12-month period ending Nov. 30. The index is tracked by the U.S. Department of Labor. As always, the DOC fee is taxable and must be substantiated upon request by the attorney general’s office.

The CATA is developing a poster about the DOC fee that dealer members can display. On the poster, the DOC fee amount is left blank for dealers to fill in; any amount up to the maximum allowed may be charged, but all customers should be charged the same amount. Systematically charging one group but not another-all males but no females, for instance-could bring charges of profiling. Two copies of the poster will be mailed to dealers this month.

I guess in a way you MUST charge it. If you charged a fee of zero on the first sale of the year, you would have to charge the same zero the rest of the year and, of course, if you charge 150 the first sale of the year, you would have to charge $150 all year. Thats the way I read it.

[wa8yxm]

Another thing.. In many states (MICHIGAN) the registration fee is a property tax. It is based, in no small part, on the price "out the door" of the RV when new.

So all those fees.. Can end up costing you for years to come.
(Or saving you for years to come depending on how they are recorded).

[Dog Folks]

Originally Posted by cgswss

........So she starts pointing out the "extra" charges, $400 for the plate, 15 for the title, of course the sales tax, then the dreaded "document fee" of $400. .......

I did not buy the RV even after the owner offered to knock $500 off the price.

Dad would have been proud of me!

Walt

Well I'm confused, but then again, that does not take much.

The Doc fee was $400.00, and the owner offered you $500.00 more off the deal. Are you not at that point, $100.00 better than the doc fee of $400.00?

You walked away after refusing an an offer that was $100.00 better?

The only thing I can figure is it was a matter of principle.

[davendeb]

I don't care what they the addons. As long as the bottom line us right they can charge me $1.00 for the RV and $49,999 in document fees. I $50,000 is a good price, I don't care. They'll make it somewhere, and I don't mind em making a little off of me. Just don't try to make all your money off me.

[Alan_Hepburn]

Originally Posted by davendeb

I don't care what they the addons. As long as the bottom line us right they can charge me $1.00 for the RV and $49,999 in document fees. I $50,000 is a good price, I don't care. They'll make it somewhere, and I don't mind em making a little off of me. Just don't try to make all your money off me.

There we go - I've even told them that on a few occasions: "I don't care what you do to get to the bottom line - but the bottom line better be the exact dollar amount we both agree on"...

[davendeb]

Originally Posted by Alan_Hepburn

There we go - I've even told them that on a few occasions: "I don't care what you do to get to the bottom line - but the bottom line better be the exact dollar amount we both agree on"...

Exactly. I brought a check from credit union for amount quoted in email from manager. When the finance guy started talking gap insurance and all that other crap, I laid the check on the desk and said you can add anything you can fit in this. He printed out my paperwork and got me on my way. It did have a $99 doc fee but nothing else and the agreed amount was the same.

[cgswss]

Originally Posted by Dog Folks

Well I'm confused, but then again, that does not take much.

The Doc fee was $400.00, and the owner offered you $500.00 more off the deal. Are you not at that point, $100.00 better than the doc fee of $400.00?

You walked away after refusing an an offer that was $100.00 better?

The only thing I can figure is it was a matter of principle.

Yes, It is a matter of principle. The sign on the RV read "Show special" 389,000 (plus tax, title, and plates) That was their posted price- I didn't talk them down $50,000 from the MSRP- their advertised price. We have 6% sales tax and title is $15. I shook hands on the deal and I got out the checkbook. 45 min. later they came out with the paperwork with a $400 doc fee added on. That means that the price was 389,400, not the 389,000 on the sign. Then they lied to me claiming that amount was mandated by the state of Michigan. Now if they had priced the RV 389,400, I would still have bought the RV- I wasn't dickering on price. They also added on $50 to fill the propane tanks. If they had a sign on it for $408,405 OUT THE DOOR, I would have bought it. But you don't shake my hand on 389,000 plus tax, title, and plates then add on another $400 doc fee when it comes time to write the check. I also did like being told that the price included all setup and I could head south from the dealership, then have them charge me $50 for propane. The $50 was fine, IF they had told me up front. Doc fees are just another way of lying.

[vsheetz]

Agree, the lying is the problem. They don't look at it that way, its just a tactic to them. I have walked on deals on cars for similar 'tactics'. Once walked out and went down the street and bought the same vehicle at another dealer within an hour.