Electric school buses are coming....can RV's be far behind ?

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

Kinda a meaningless argument, because when you distill everything down to the lowest common denominator, "...of course they do the same thing, just differently..."

My flip phone has an internet browser, and basic "apps" with the ability to load more....so at your basic level they do the same thing, just differently.

And before someone goes off trying to tell me how different they are.....don't bother......I agree they are different, and the smartphone has many benefits.....but that fits right in with my argument. There is room in the market for both.....same with electric RV's...there is room in the market for both.

There is actually a resurgence of people going back to flip phones after having owned another smartphone.... google it.

Sorry you don't get to redefine what a smartphone is:

"noun
a mobile phone that performs many of the functions of a computer, typically having a touchscreen interface, Internet access, and an operating system capable of running downloaded applications."

Electric RV's and ICE RV have all the same functions, the analogy is bad.

[vincee]

Too much emphasis is being placed on one company and one person, I guess you can call a technology pioneer Elon Musk. I am personally not a fan of him as I stated earlier. The battery factory in Nevada has a lot of folks from that state concerned that the factory will not produce as claimed, similar to the folks in the Buffalo, NY area with the large solar panel factory built with $800 million dollars of New York State taxpayer monies. The cell phone debate is pretty much a ridiculous comparison when you are talking world wide demand and usage in the hundreds of millions for a $500 product in comparison to a wish list vehicle that would perhaps be in the half million dollars or more, and have very limited appeal to a small, small market.

[pasdad1]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Sorry you don't get to redefine what a smartphone is:



"noun

a mobile phone that performs many of the functions of a computer, typically having a touchscreen interface, Internet access, and an operating system capable of running downloaded applications."



Electric RV's and ICE RV have all the same functions, the analogy is bad.

Sorry, my flip phone meets that definition. The touchscreen is not a requirement of the definition. The flip phone is a mobile computer with an operating system. It runs the java virtual machine, and can run java applets that are downloaded. It takes and views pictures.

The key is they do the functions differently.

The ICE RV cannot run silently. It cannot avoid oil changes. It cannot potentially accelerate as quickly. It cannot run onboard electrical systems with the same capacity without huge upgrades. It cannot recover energy from braking.....etc...

You cannot simply ignore the benefits because you choose to or don't want them....they exist nonetheless.

[radar]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Like I said 62 hours to charge at a campground. Full blast 50 amps SIXTY TWO HOURS.

Are you going to sit at one of those charging stations in your RV for 8 hours?

Are you just ignoring the math?

We are EV drivers, other than our diesel motorhome all we drive is EV's so we are very in touch with the charging situation.

I have never seen a Chademo charger that could be accesed by anything other than maybe a van sized 22-24 foot motorhome so that would be a problem.

Although I don't think there will be an electric class A anytime soon, I suspect you will see a 22-24 foot all electric but with upgraded APU available within the next 5 years. 12 to 20 KW diesel APU's are pretty small and quiet. A 120 to 180 KW battery pack would probably be sufficient for many peoples range needs. That would put the battery pack around 25000 ish dollars. Totally doable. I think there would be a market. Lots of people would be PK with dropping 200,000 on a 24 foot motorhome if it was all electric. 22-24 feet would work in nany Chademo charge sites and a 50 amp RV plug would be a simple overnight charge. It will start in smaller RV's and progress from there.

As the one poster stated, other than topping up the washer fluid we don't do much in the way of maintenace on our EV's. There are some real advantages there. I know we would never go back to anything with a tail pipe.

JMHO

[pasdad1]

Originally Posted by radar

We are EV drivers, other than our diesel motorhome all we drive is EV's so we are very in touch with the charging situation.



I have never seen a Chademo charger that could be accesed by anything other than maybe a van sized 22-24 foot motorhome so that would be a problem.



Although I don't think there will be an electric class A anytime soon, I suspect you will see a 22-24 foot all electric but with upgraded APU available within the next 5 years. 12 to 20 KW diesel APU's are pretty small and quiet. A 120 to 180 KW battery pack would probably be sufficient for many peoples range needs. That would put the battery pack around 25000 ish dollars. Totally doable. I think there would be a market. Lots of people would be PK with dropping 200,000 on a 24 foot motorhome if it was all electric. 22-24 feet would work in nany Chademo charge sites and a 50 amp RV plug would be a simple overnight charge. It will start in smaller RV's and progress from there.



As the one poster stated, other than topping up the washer fluid we don't do much in the way of maintenace on our EV's. There are some real advantages there. I know we would never go back to anything with a tail pipe.



JMHO

Thank you ! You validate what I have been trying to say all along.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

Sorry, my flip phone meets that definition. The touchscreen is not a requirement of the definition. The flip phone is a mobile computer with an operating system. It runs the java virtual machine, and can run java applets that are downloaded. It takes and views pictures.

The key is they do the functions differently.

Conveniently ignoring the touchscreen and changing the goal post again. The large touchscreen is the primary things makes the phone bigger and have worse battery life.

I can't draw on a non-touch screen, I can't read full web pages on a flip phone. Without the large touch screen the downsides you listed go away.

Again there is nothing an electric RV does that a ICE RV can't, you use it exactly the same way, drive somewhere and camp, assuming there was a charging infrastructure for it, which there isn't. So right now it does less than an ICE RV.

Originally Posted by pasdad1

The ICE RV cannot run silently. It cannot avoid oil changes. It cannot potentially accelerate as quickly. It cannot run onboard electrical systems with the same capacity without huge upgrades. It cannot recover energy from braking.....etc....

As I said nothing new, just quieter, your fuel through generator can provide all the electricity needed for everything with the same capacity. You get some energy back on engine braking great, but that not something that allows your motorhome to do something new for you, that just efficiency gains, both kinds engine brake.

Originally Posted by pasdad1

You cannot simply ignore the benefits because you choose to or don't want them....they exist nonetheless.

You can not simply ignore the drawbacks and costs because you choose to or don't want them....they exist nonetheless.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by radar

12 to 20 KW diesel APU's are pretty small and quiet.

How small? I don't see a 12kw unit under 600 lbs anywhere, let alone a 20kw unit, that's as much as the main engine weight in a small 24 foot van conversion.

Originally Posted by radar

A 120 to 180 KW battery pack would probably be sufficient for many peoples range needs. That would put the battery pack around 25000 ish dollars. Totally doable. I think there would be a market. Lots of people would be PK with dropping 200,000 on a 24 foot motorhome if it was all electric. 22-24 feet would work in nany Chademo charge sites and a 50 amp RV plug would be a simple overnight charge. It will start in smaller RV's and progress from there.

That battery will be at least 2000 lbs and currently would cost at least $60,000 and take 10-15 hours to charge full blast at 50 amps. If the battery prices come down, maybe sans APU. You will get a electric class B conversion with less range and "overnight" charging if the campground would allow it to max draw all night for an additional $25k over the diesel version.

[pasdad1]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Conveniently ignoring the touchscreen and changing the goal post again. The large touchscreen is the primary things makes the phone bigger and have worse battery life.



I can't draw on a non-touch screen, I can't read full web pages on a flip phone. Without the large touch screen the downsides you listed go away.



Again there is nothing an electric RV does that a ICE RV can't, you use it exactly the same way, drive somewhere and camp, assuming there was a charging infrastructure for it, which there isn't. So right now it does less than an ICE RV.







As I said nothing new, just quieter, your fuel through generator can provide all the electricity needed for everything with the same capacity. You get some energy back on engine braking great, but that not something that allows your motorhome to do something new for you, that just efficiency gains, both kinds engine brake.







You can not simply ignore the drawbacks and costs because you choose to or don't want them....they exist nonetheless.

No. Your own definition said "...typically has a touch screen" the definition of "typically" is common, but NOT required.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

No. Your own definition said "...typically has a touch screen" the definition of "typically" is common, but NOT required.

Again without the large touch screen, smaller lighter and better battery life, which was your argument. Typical because without the big touch screen, apps and web browsing is difficult and not very useful.

Its not magic, every feature you add increases size and reduces battery life, your flip phone doesn't browse the web or run apps any more efficiently, you trade one for the other.

Phone have always been battery powered, they benefited greatly chip power efficiency gains allowing the smartphones we have today. Electric motors are not going to get much more efficient, they are only a few percent away from 100%, there is no economy of scale that will change this only a new battery technology will help.

The RV we are not trading anything feature wise, they both do the same thing right? Again what does a electric RV do that a ICE one doesn't? They go the same places and do the same things, hopefully.

Trading huge costs and carrying capacity for less noise and maintenance and fuel cost savings. Fuel cost would take more than a decade to make up for the battery cost and then you need a new battery.

I am being generous here because there is a whole lot of places an electric RV couldn't go right now due to no charging infrastructure, campgrounds would need fast chargers at each site to make this work.

[pasdad1]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Again without the large touch screen, smaller lighter and better battery life, which was your argument. Typical because without the big touch screen, apps and web browsing is difficult and not very useful.



Its not magic, every feature you add increases size and reduces battery life, your flip phone doesn't browse the web or run apps any more efficiently, you trade one for the other.



Phone have always been battery powered, they benefited greatly chip power efficiency gains allowing the smartphones we have today. Electric motors are not going to get much more efficient, they are only a few percent away from 100%, there is no economy of scale that will change this only a new battery technology will help.



The RV we are not trading anything feature wise, they both do the same thing right? Again what does a electric RV do that a ICE one doesn't? They go the same places and do the same things, hopefully.



Trading huge costs and carrying capacity for less noise and maintenance and fuel cost savings. Fuel cost would take more than a decade to make up for the battery cost and then you need a new battery.



I am being generous here because there is a whole lot of places an electric RV couldn't go right now due to no charging infrastructure, campgrounds would need fast chargers at each site to make this work.

What I have learned is that some people try so hard to justify their point of view, they ignore the forest for the trees. Yes, many of the downsides are why some will never choose the option....but elevate perspective to a higher altitude, and see that it will make sense to some people. Because some people think it is an "illogical" choice, don't condemn it for all people. The fact is it IS going to happen. We can quibble over the timeline, but that won't change the natural evolution which is occurring already.

I answered the question of what an electric can do that an ICE cannot. Because someone doesn't consider those differences relevant, doesn't mean those differences are irrelevant to others.

[RPreeb]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

What I have learned is that some people try so hard to justify their point of view, they ignore the forest for the trees. Yes, many of the downsides are why some will never choose the option....but elevate perspective to a higher altitude, and see that it will make sense to some people. Because some people think it is an "illogical" choice, don't condemn it for all people. The fact is it IS going to happen. We can quibble over the timeline, but that won't change the natural evolution which is occurring already.

I answered the question of what an electric can do that an ICE cannot. Because someone doesn't consider those differences relevant, doesn't mean those differences are irrelevant to others.

Tell you what... I'll come back and let you say "I told you so!" when it happens. Oh wait.... I'll be long dead and buried when and if that ever comes to pass.

I'm more leaning toward "Mr. Fusion" - just toss in a few banana peels and away we go.

[Gordon Dewald]

Seems to me that this conversation has gone from "going to happen" to "it can be done" over the last while. I am not going to go through the entire text to totally verify.

However anything is possible, especially if you believe hard enough, no matter how practical you may be. That's why the words "concept car" come to mind.

Innovative RV driven by electric will not be available until the infrastructure is there to support it. Then the market will still be so low that the industry will only be able to proceed if government gives sufficient tax breaks or incentives. How likely is government going to give tax breaks to a small luxury group? Pigs can fly, just need to get the right incentive - nacho chips according to the advertisers!

[pasdad1]

The infrastructure is growing fast.


Read this today.


"Tesla will double the number of Supercharger locations in North America in 2017, the company revealed today in its quarterly letter to shareholders. The company currently has 2,636 Superchargers at 373 locations across the United States, Canada, and Mexico, and plans to have twice as many locations open by the end of 2017."

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

The infrastructure is growing fast.


Read this today.


"Tesla will double the number of Supercharger locations in North America in 2017, the company revealed today in its quarterly letter to shareholders. The company currently has 2,636 Superchargers at 373 locations across the United States, Canada, and Mexico, and plans to have twice as many locations open by the end of 2017."

Compare that to 114,533 gas stations. ;-)