Electric school buses are coming....can RV's be far behind ?

[vincee]

Lets see, two years away? Hmmm, where is the Model 3? Only 200 built so far and people are asking for their deposits back by the hundreds. The Solar City manufacturing plant in Buffalo is now more than a year away from production that was to start Fall of 2017. And this is in a market, solar panels, that is seeing a drop in business, especially the home market, before the government subsidies have even ended. Plus, U.S. based solar panel manufacturers are having a difficult time competing with foreign imports, or, what else is new. I applaud Elon Musk as a visionary, but I always look at him as a huckster going where ever there is a huge pile of government monies to fund his dreams.

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by jharrell

The battery will have to be included, no one would touch it with a ten foot pole if you where on the hook for a $180,000 battery if something went wrong with it. Just go buy a whole new diesel for less.

Gas tank goes on a diesel big deal, worst case your engine blows might be $30,000 for a whole new one.

I do like the redundant electric motors, they said it can lose two out of the four and still keep going, that's nice.

If a battery would go 500 miles on a charge and was expected to go 1,000,000 miles that would be 2000 charges. A more practical distance of 400 would require 2500 recharges.

[radar]

Originally Posted by vincee

Lets see, two years away? Hmmm, where is the Model 3? Only 200 built so far and people are asking for their deposits back by the hundreds. The Solar City manufacturing plant in Buffalo is now more than a year away from production that was to start Fall of 2017. And this is in a market, solar panels, that is seeing a drop in business, especially the home market, before the government subsidies have even ended. Plus, U.S. based solar panel manufacturers are having a difficult time competing with foreign imports, or, what else is new. I applaud Elon Musk as a visionary, but I always look at him as a huckster going where ever there is a huge pile of government monies to fund his dreams.

Although production of the model three is still quite slow there are now over 2000 serial numbers issued and at least a 1000 have left the factory. Truckloads of model 3's have been leaving the factory fairly regularly and have been arriving all over the US and a few in europe for certification. My guess is the 20,000 per month goal won't be reached until end of first quarter 2018.

[Tugboat]

Ok I can see it now I pull into the campground with my new electric super C RV people are in awe. Every is asking questions as I do my set up and plug in my 50amp cord and the whole Campground dime's I stay the night and pull out the next morning after I cook my egg's on top of the power hook up and a month latter the owner of the campground is trying to figure out why his electric bill is dubble and the same amount of Campers

And dry camping is really a problem

[radar]

Originally Posted by Tugboat

Ok I can see it now I pull into the campground with my new electric super C RV people are in awe. Every is asking questions as I do my set up and plug in my 50amp cord and the whole Campground dime's I stay the night and pull out the next morning after I cook my egg's on top of the power hook up and a month latter the owner of the campground is trying to figure out why his electric bill is dubble and the same amount of Campers

And dry camping is really a problem

I don't think it would be a problem. Campground owners are usually RVers. They would be aware of what is happening in the industry. The problem is a simple one to solve by either a metered site or a flat fee based on a worst case scenario. Lets say 30 bucks for 200 kw of power for an overnight stay and recharge in addition to the normal fee. Any campground owner would be open to additional revenue streams. The campground owner would know what sites are suitable for this and direct the RVer accordingly. The campground owner may also choose to add an inexpensive EVSE that would allow the campground owner to control the rate of charge so that he doesn't put a strain on any particular part of the campground electrical system. An EVSE is "electrical vehicle supply equipment". These can be controlled by WIFI by the campground owner and of course a fee can be levied.

This is a typical screenshot of our EVSE. Total control. The proprietor could add them as demand dictates. Not expensive and easy to add to the pedestal.



This is what EVS'e look like. The one on the right is a 240 volt unit (it is what generated the screen above thru wifi) The one one on the left is 110 12 amp only.



These are in our garage. Both our vehicles are electric. One is our Toad.

Hope this helps shed some light on the process.

John

[nothermark]

You are missing that the campground owner already has power problems with the conventional RV's causing brownouts because the power company does not provision for full usage of all the power the park can deliver. If it's the busy season you are a problem for the rest of his customers.

You are also assuming he has two 50 amp services available for you to use. If not then you have to subtract the power it takes to run your all electric coach from the power available thus lengthening the charging time. If you need heat or A/C that power diversion can be substantial.

[jharrell]

Part of the "Musk math" that allows the semi to be 25 cents per mile cheaper than a diesel is comparing $2.50 per gallon diesel to 7 cents per kWh electricity.

7 cents per kWh is well below the national avg of 12 cents and below even the current best prices. The way they are getting that low is only considering mega chargers running off solar.

The are claiming 2 year payback, so far the only way anyone has been able figure out how you get 2 year payback at 25 cents per mile is the low range 300 mile version running double shifts and only using solar mega chargers for the cheap electricity.

A 50 amp campground service is going to give you 144 miles of charge per 24 hours at full blast as nothermark said not counting any of your own camp usage such as air conditioning heating etc. No campground can sustain all sites pulling the full 12 kw each, I would imagine it would take big upgrades to do so.

Boondocking would be really interesting with such a big battery, you could run two RV air conditioners for 10 days 24/7 on the 500 mile version, of course you would not be able to leave after so would have to make sure you have enough to get back to charger. 2kw would be about the most solar you could get on a large RV roof, which would get you maybe 8 miles a day charge if you used no other power under good conditions.

[radar]

Good morning all.

So re the campground. No. Only one 50 amp service would be required. Charging at the campground could be looked upon as more of a top up situation. We are in a 50 amp diesel pusher. I doubt we rarely pull more than 20 amps of the full 50 amp 240 available. We actually do quite well on a 30 amp 120 circuit. And again, if the infrastructure for the park is weak the proprietor could either current limit the EVSE or simply disallow it and the RV can charge at a fast charger. In a smaller way we experience this now as our toad is an electric vehicle. As far as having every site full of EV based motorhomes and trucks, that is a long way off. Infrastructure will continue to evolve along the way. I see many of the replies are from Americans and I know nothing about the American infrastructure but from what I read I get the impression it may be quite antiquated and be on the edge of collapse. That in itself is surprising to me but it also makes me wonder if a big upgrade is not on the way. I have no idea. Micro grid generation thru solar and wind is getting quite common. In europe (including northern europe) more factories and industrial parks are developing their own off grid systems so they determine their own rates. Entire communities are literally dropping off the grid or selling power to the grid. Cities like Freiburg etc. Every rooftop covered with solar etc. Lots to work out obviously but you have to start somewhere. Everytime we go back to europe we are surprised at the changes. We are presently in California and have noticed a lot more parking lots covered in solar. Keeps the car in the shade too.

Re the truck itself, just like EV's in general, there is no immediate one fits all vehicle for anything. There doesn't have to be. Don't buy a car if you need a truck. Don't buy an EV if you need to operate in minus 40 temps. And don't buy a truck with 500 miles of range if you need a truck with 800 miles.

Anyway. Its a good discussion and I enjoy reading the different points of view.

Stay safe on the road all.

John

[nothermark]

Part of the power issue with parks is the age of the park and part is that the power companies understand that most folks do not normally use the full power available. Given that they provision the park for less than 100% usage as it saves the utility a significant amount of money in generation and distribution capacity. That is why there can be a problem on really hot days when everyone is running their A/C's. Adding much EV charging would skew that usage. The effect of that depends on the area where the park is located. For most places the season is relatively short so the payback will be steep.

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by nothermark

Part of the power issue with parks is the age of the park and part is that the power companies understand that most folks do not normally use the full power available. Given that they provision the park for less than 100% usage as it saves the utility a significant amount of money in generation and distribution capacity. That is why there can be a problem on really hot days when everyone is running their A/C's. Adding much EV charging would skew that usage. The effect of that depends on the area where the park is located. For most places the season is relatively short so the payback will be steep.

I agree with all that is stated above, but it is not unique to campgrounds. I have 200 amp service to my home, as well as most of the other 10 houses on our cul-de-sak. I don't think I ever used any where near 200 amps, even during a party, or while working in my shop. Considering this, if all 11 houses used all available power at any given night at the same time, I am sure the local power substation would bark. If even a few streets used max available power in their distribution panels on a given night, my power provider would have a fit.

Also, I have 200 amp service in my house, but it is code to have more than 200 amps as the total of all the circuit breakers in that distribution panel. The reason for this, is that it is so rare to max out all individual circuits as well.

Most power distribution networks take all this into account. Some can handle it, some can not. On hot nights in the summer, the power companies have studied this, and know to have more power available. Some do a better job than others, and some have more capacity to accommodate than others, but they all employ people to accurately predict how much need there will be at any given time.

I am sure that park owners do similar calculations. Just because I park at a 50 amp site does not mean the park owner presumes I will use 50 amps from the time I plug in to the time I unplug.

[cinergi]

Don't forget that this transition won't happen overnight. It's not like an RV park will suddenly have 20 motorhomes all sucking down 40 amps (charging on a 50 amp circuit must be de-rated to 40 amps) at the same time. They'll be lucky to have ONE doing that for some time to come. And most won't need to charge from 0 to 100%. Just like the infrastructure for EV charging has slowly grown and become utilized, so it will be for electric RVs.
I, for one, am drooling at the idea of an electrically-driven RV. The charging infrastructure for them will follow as demand grows. Early adopters will have a tougher time at first but the infrastructure will catch up and support it.
This is exactly how it's gone for the 7 years of my Tesla ownership.

[Tugboat]

You can always have your own generator

[Cedarmancity]

Originally Posted by Notlad

In addition to range the availability of chargers at campgrounds will be problematic. I am sure with the battery bank required to power a motorhome quite a few hours will be required to recharge so logically it would be done overnight.

I imagine campground owners prepared to invest the capitol could have a few sites with chargers and charge a premium for them to recoup the cost but that kind of investment is probably not feasible for many small campground owners who have trouble providing even a good wifi signal.

I do like the idea though and eventually I am sure we will get there. I do remember seeing a few years ago some kind of prototype electric Class A motorhime that was something like a millions bucks.

Many campgrounds won't install high speed internet or are a little short on personal to maintain the property. Asking them to install power charging stations will take a long time. Mom and pop campgrounds will probably struggle the most with the cost.
Of course the future and progress is coming and will eventually drag the RV
industry along for the ride.

[vincee]

I can see large corporate campgrounds adapting as the RV market changes. These are the type of campgrounds already charging $80-$100 + per night. I can only imagine what they'll charge when adding facilities for electric RV's. How quickly will government run campgrounds make changes to their parks? Mom and Pop's, I don't think many of us will still be RV'ing by the time they change. And I don't think any of the M&P's have electrical consultants on call to judge their power needs as previously posted and adjust accordingly.