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Old 10-20-2019, 10:29 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by rarebear.nm View Post
6. Can't store wind or solar power. That is changing and likely change more rapidly in the near future. The "old" batteries from EVs are retired when they fail to hold less than 80% of a full like new charge. However, that is far from being trash. Several utility companies are buying used EV batteries and adding them to their power grid to offset peak or surge power requirements. Some places pay EV powers to permit their parked cars to be used a buffer on the grid. When supercapacitors become more common they may also help in storing power from renewable sources. There is just way too much money to made from a solution for it not to be solved.
You're completely missing the problem with storing solar and wind power. Solar only produces significant power for about 8 hours a day. (Just ask any RVer with a solar set up.) The rest of the time, it's either night, or the sun isn't high enough in the sky to provide significant usable energy. You're looking at an optimistic 8 hours a day to produce energy that has to work 24 hours a day. You would have to fill the entire state of Texas with car batteries to have enough reserve capacity to power the grid for 16 hours a day. And even that assumes you can actually recharge those batteries and power the grid during the 8 hours a day you've got enough sunlight. And even that assumes you've never have a cloudy day.



Solar and batteries can kinda work for a residential house, but that's nothing like trying to power hospitals, apartment complexes, grocery stores, traffic lights, etc.



Honestly, buying a few used car batteries is a publicity stunt, not a solution. It's the same as tossing a glass of water at a burning apartment complex and saying that you're putting out the fire.


Wind is a pipe dream in the US simply because there's not enough wind to harness. It has other problems too.
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Old 10-20-2019, 10:31 PM   #86
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I have been driving a plug in electric Nissan Leaf for 4 years now and its just fine for local travel and the current 2019 model has about a 250 mile range along with a fast charger that makes interstate travel more viable. My costs even charging from home using the 120 volt convenience charger that came with the car has been less than $10 per month compared to $70 to $100 per month fuel costs with an internal combustion engine that gets over 30 mpg.

Locally Duke Energy is really pursuing distributed local solar built into private homes with the potential to eliminate the need for fossil fuel power generation and with the potential for lowering electric costs to a nickle per kilowatt or less.

The batteries are being made using less lithium every year and Nissan has started their own recycling program giving great discounts. They make the batteries along with the cars in their own factory here in the US so are in a pretty good position to do this.

The electric drive trains themselves taking the Musk equation and unnecessary complexity out of it are very robust and can last for 1 million miles with 2 million miles quite conceivable in the near future so with the renewable battery programs being pursued the longevity of the mechanicals can really shine. Be mindful too that originally most cars were electric and it was the introduction of the internal combustion engine that caused the first disruption.

Analyst Tony Seba has proposed that we could be looking at another disruption event where the new electrics and low cost solar power may swing this the other way again.

He has an interesting take on this and it may likely come a lot faster than many might think.

See:

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Old 10-20-2019, 10:33 PM   #87
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I don’t know. Wind is kinda cool.


https://www-bloomberg-com.cdn.amppro...d-strong-winds
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Old 10-20-2019, 10:59 PM   #88
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a) Weather changing?
b) TheGovernmentAgents accumulating and monopolizing power?
c) Electricity providers reducing electricity to your home == Black-outs?
d) The electrical grid providing electricity to several million new vehicles each year?

Three of these four are inevitable.
One of these four is doomed to fail.

Instead of getting all worked-up about something I cannot influence...
I'm spending more time these days tossing tennis-balls to the dogs.
And then, we settle-in for a nice nap.
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Old 10-20-2019, 11:34 PM   #89
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The"they" is simply politicians and the bureaucracy they create. We live with the remnants of the previous administration and congresses. In the future we'll be dealing with the leftovers of the present one if it survives the coming election. Single terms leave a shallower footprint.
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Old 10-21-2019, 12:42 AM   #90
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MoMule

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Who ever thought we would see an electric Harley?
Electric Harley? No Way! Without the distinctly Harley engine sound, it"s not a Harley.
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Old 10-21-2019, 12:50 AM   #91
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Until there is infrastructure to support them outside of urban areas nationwide
The whole 'infrastructure' argument is really a non-issue because the infrastructure is the electrical grid... it already exists. Adding an EV charging station anywhere on that grid only takes a few hours. The only reason there aren't more charging stations in rural areas currently is that there aren't enough EVs in rural areas to NEED them yet. Indeed, rural areas currently have MORE EV charging stations than they need to allow cross country travelers places to recharge.

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and until recharging times or a system of rapid rapid battery replacement that compares to refueling stops e.g. 10-20 minutes I don’t think we’ll be seeing rapid changeover to EVs.
Charging times are getting closer to this, but it really isn't needed for rapid changeover. Most people will charge their vehicles at home and/or work every day and never need to go to a 'refueling station'. Those are only needed on long distance trips... where you are going to want to stop for a little longer to stretch your legs, use a restroom, get something to eat, etc.

Norway has already achieved rapid changeover. EVs passed ICEs in new car sales earlier this year. They're targeting 2025 for zero ICE sales. The fact that it HAS happened there proves that it CAN happen. They just passed incentives to make EVs more attractive financially and people flocked to them. As EV prices continue to fall the same thing will happen everywhere else even without the incentives.

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Hybrids on the other hand could be in the near future,
Hybrid vehicle technology has come and gone. None of the major automakers are even working on a next generation of hybrids. Or ICEs for that matter. It's all EVs and experimental systems (e.g. hydrogen) now.

I wondered for a while if we'd see EVs with gasoline to run an electrical generator to recharge the battery. That would have been a much simpler powertrain than any of the hybrids and would actually have yielded greater range... though on long trips you'd want to start with a fully charged battery to give the generator time to run. MAYBE someone will revive hybrids for a concept like this in a niche market (e.g. motorhomes), but the capabilities of 'next gen' EVs coming out now make it seem unlikely.

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but technology is no where near the point of motorhomes or heavy duty trucks that pull RVs.
Hybrids no. EVs yes. Electric pickups and semis are coming out next year... and they'll outperform the ICE versions in most ways (e.g. towing & acceleration).

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Besides several studies have been done about the “green” factor and EVs have to be driven 75K miles before they break even on being green. In other words the energy used in the manufacture generated by carbon creating power plants takes that long to make up the difference.
The only studies with findings like that made absurd assumptions that would apply equally to ICEs. That is, the energy involved in gathering and processing all the components in an ICE is as great or greater than that for an EV. If we then assume all that energy were generated by the most polluting coal plants on the planet we get numbers like the studies you refer to... but even then the EVs are better because DRIVING them generates less pollution. If we take the fact that coal is down to 25% of US power production (from 50% just ten years ago) the picture gets a lot better.

Two thirds of new electrical power added in the US this year has been wind and solar. Natural gas, which is less polluting than coal, makes up almost all of the remainder. In the US (and most of the western world in general), coal is dying, natural gas is in decline, and oil is peaking. In another decade developing countries will be where we are now and fossil fuels will be all but dead in developed countries.
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Old 10-21-2019, 06:20 AM   #92
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To deny climate change is akin to admitting ignorance. If you care about the future, it needs to be addressed and oil should NOT be in the mix.
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Old 10-21-2019, 08:10 AM   #93
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To deny climate change is akin to admitting ignorance. If you care about the future, it needs to be addressed and oil should NOT be in the mix.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:01 AM   #94
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State, local, and feds LOVE PEOPLE buying loads of fuel!. Its called taxes. If they really thought global warming true, theyd build mass public transportation systems. No such thing as man made climate issues.
Its all about money and control..
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:29 AM   #95
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To deny climate change is akin to admitting ignorance. If you care about the future, it needs to be addressed and oil should NOT be in the mix.
Hearts and minds mate. Hearts and minds!
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:31 AM   #96
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Here some reading on point.

https://www.realclearenergy.org/arti...be_110427.html
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:49 AM   #97
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Norway has already achieved rapid changeover. EVs passed ICEs in new car sales earlier this year. They're targeting 2025 for zero ICE sales. The fact that it HAS happened there proves that it CAN happen. They just passed incentives to make EVs more attractive financially and people flocked to them. As EV prices continue to fall the same thing will happen everywhere else even without the incentives.
Norway has about 5.5 million people and is smaller than California. The US is 30 times larger than Norway and has about 60 times the people. Just because something worked in Norway doesn't mean it can work in the US.
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:49 AM   #98
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State, local, and feds LOVE PEOPLE buying loads of fuel!. Its called taxes. If they really thought global warming true, theyd build mass public transportation systems. No such thing as man made climate issues.
Its all about money and control..
John Tyndall used early spectroscopy (i.e. the study of how EM radiation interacts with matter) to prove the existence of the 'carbon dioxide greenhouse effect' in 1859. His findings are easily repeatable, and completely unchallenged, to this day.

Yes, it is all about money and control... so are you seriously arguing that environmental hippies are secretly running the world and picking on the poor defenseless fossil fuel industry?

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Norway has about 5.5 million people and is smaller than California. The US is 30 times larger than Norway and has about 60 times the people. Just because something worked in Norway doesn't mean it can work in the US.
If Norway were really small and the transition weak I'd grant the point. However, given that they have purchased millions of EVs and you can drive more than 1500 miles in a single direction within the confines of Norway... the country is plenty big enough for comparison. Their transition from ~100% ICE sales to ~100% EV sales is going to take right about a decade. That's incredibly fast... which demonstrates that it was EASY.

Yes, the US has more people over a larger area... but the vast majority of their road trips (i.e. >95%) are still well within EV ranges. It will take longer, but there are no significant differences which would prevent a transition.
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