Fresh Diesel vs Biodiesel

[imnprsd]

So I finished my 2019 summer trip and checked my log book. I put 13,200 miles on my RV traveling from Houston, New Orleans, Montana, back to Houston, Chicago, Old Quebec City, Bar Harbor, Brooklyn-NYC, and back to Texas for storage.

This is what I learned about fuel and fuel delivery on this trip:

My RV ran much better and more reliably after I installed the FASS Fuel Pump (I now have 3-filters with filtration down to 2-microns)... and during the last 3,000 miles of my trip I put a Ag-Diesel Power Module "Chip" #12100 that also helped give me 10% better fuel mileage (which is to say I saved $20-$25 every time I filled my tank) and I got more torque. My RV also wanted to fly at 70MPH! ...But pulling a toad I kept it at 63MPH most of the time.

What did I learn about diesel fuels from everyone who contributed and from my personal experiences driving 13,200 miles?

1) If you have a stock Cummins lift pump and have never tightened your 3 lift pump bolts... do it now! Don't wait until you experience fuel delivery problems later and someone cons you into replacing your fuel pump.

*** Better yet, upgrade to a FASS "Titanium" fuel pump and start filtering down to 2-microns. Your engine will love you for it!

2) Buy the cheapest diesel where ever you feel comfortable doing so.

* All this talk about #2 diesel vs. "no sticker diesel" vs. B-20 diesel is just talk when you are "on the road."

* The only time it makes sense to hunt down #2 or "no sticker diesel" is when you put your coach in storage. Then you want to store your RV with the least amount of bio-diesel possible.

3) Use a biocide when storing your RV. (We order our biocide on Amazon.)

4) If you are a Cummnis-CAPS owner, we recommend using Howe's as a fuel additive.

5) Anytime you are starting your engine in sub-35F weather, then it's best to use a winter additive.

6) Carry extra fuel filters and properly sized fuel wrench or strap wrench!

JUST FOR GRINS: I will list the best diesel fuel performance I got in my RV based upon torque and MPG. (This is very subjective on my part; and yes, I am factoring out road conditions, wind, and all the other things that matter.) So when you take out all the variables, this is how I break down fuel quality by state as far as I can rememeber:


Best diesel fuel quality found in: TX, AR, IN, IL, LA, AL, GA, KY, TN, NC, SC, TN, OK, KS

Average diesel fuel quality: UT, MT, WY, NM, MD, FL, ND, SD, NB, MO, MI, MD,NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NY, DE, VA, PA, IL, OH, CO, ID,

Worst diesel fuel quality: CA, OR, WA, NV, ME, IA, WI

[skypilot_1]

IMNPRSD,
"I put 13,200 miles on my RV traveling from Houston, New Orleans, Montana, back to Houston, Chicago, Old Quebec City, Bar Harbor, Brooklyn-NYC, and back to Texas for storage.

Thats some trip you took.
13,200 total miles. In 46 states and Im assuming to rate the diesel in each, that you actually stopped and purchased some in all 46. And since you had to be mixing it in the tank, by what means did you come up with for your "Best -Average - Worst by state

"Best diesel fuel quality found in: TX, AR, IN, IL, LA, AL, GA, KY, TN, NC, SC, TN, OK, KS

Average diesel fuel quality: UT, MT, WY, NM, MD, FL, ND, SD, NB, MO, MI, MD,NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NY, DE, VA, PA, IL, OH, CO, ID,

Worst diesel fuel quality: CA, OR, WA, NV, ME, IA, WI"

To do 46 fuel stops (you must have a small....tank) should be some kind of Guinness World Record in its own right.
I see you hit FL as well.....sorta outta your way wasn't it ..
And since its the "op" summary - final - final -final" makes it even better

[vincee]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

So I finished my 2019 summer trip and checked my log book. I put 13,200 miles on my RV traveling from Houston, New Orleans, Montana, back to Houston, Chicago, Old Quebec City, Bar Harbor, Brooklyn-NYC, and back to Texas for storage.

This is what I learned about fuel and fuel delivery on this trip:

My RV ran much better and more reliably after I installed the FASS Fuel Pump (I now have 3-filters with filtration down to 2-microns)... and during the last 3,000 miles of my trip I put a Ag-Diesel Power Module "Chip" #12100 that also helped give me 10% better fuel mileage (which is to say I saved $20-$25 every time I filled my tank) and I got more torque. My RV also wanted to fly at 70MPH! ...But pulling a toad I kept it at 63MPH most of the time.

What did I learn about diesel fuels from everyone who contributed and from my personal experiences driving 13,200 miles?

1) If you have a stock Cummins lift pump and have never tightened your 3 lift pump bolts... do it now! Don't wait until you experience fuel delivery problems later and someone cons you into replacing your fuel pump.

*** Better yet, upgrade to a FASS "Titanium" fuel pump and start filtering down to 2-microns. Your engine will love you for it!

2) Buy the cheapest diesel where ever you feel comfortable doing so.

* All this talk about #2 diesel vs. "no sticker diesel" vs. B-20 diesel is just talk when you are "on the road."

* The only time it makes sense to hunt down #2 or "no sticker diesel" is when you put your coach in storage. Then you want to store your RV with the least amount of bio-diesel possible.

3) Use a biocide when storing your RV. (We order our biocide on Amazon.)

4) If you are a Cummnis-CAPS owner, we recommend using Howe's as a fuel additive.

5) Anytime you are starting your engine in sub-35F weather, then it's best to use a winter additive.

6) Carry extra fuel filters and properly sized fuel wrench or strap wrench!

JUST FOR GRINS: I will list the best diesel fuel performance I got in my RV based upon torque and MPG. (This is very subjective on my part; and yes, I am factoring out road conditions, wind, and all the other things that matter.) So when you take out all the variables, this is how I break down fuel quality by state as far as I can rememeber:


Best diesel fuel quality found in: TX, AR, IN, IL, LA, AL, GA, KY, TN, NC, SC, TN, OK, KS

Average diesel fuel quality: UT, MT, WY, NM, MD, FL, ND, SD, NB, MO, MI, MD,NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NY, DE, VA, PA, IL, OH, CO, ID,

Worst diesel fuel quality: CA, OR, WA, NV, ME, IA, WI

If after reading this post is what I have to look forward to as a first time first camping season DP owner, then I'm tempted to start shopping for a quality Tiffin Allegro Open Road and the tried and true Ford V10 87 octane and $50 home oil changes over the winter offseason. The more I hear about diesel, in particular, Cumins, the more I wonder if I made a mistake buying my Sporstcoach when my DW and I were shopping for a two-year-old Tiffin but couldn't pass up the great deal on the SC and getting into the DP world at a price we could afford. Never met a V10 owner that had to carry spare fuel filters, carry wrenches to tighten pumps, need to add additives, etc. etc. etc. What this feels like to me is guys that owned old Harley's, pre '86 models, that would tell you their Harley will run for over a 100K miles, but never mentioned the maintenance, oil leaks, break-downs, and sore legs and time lost just trying to start the darn things.

[Victory Blue]

Originally Posted by vincee

If after reading this post is what I have to look forward to as a first time first camping season DP owner, then I'm tempted to start shopping for a quality Tiffin Allegro Open Road and the tried and true Ford V10 87 octane and $50 home oil changes over the winter offseason. The more I hear about diesel, in particular, Cumins, the more I wonder if I made a mistake buying my Sporstcoach when my DW and I were shopping for a two-year-old Tiffin but couldn't pass up the great deal on the SC and getting into the DP world at a price we could afford. Never met a V10 owner that had to carry spare fuel filters, carry wrenches to tighten pumps, need to add additives, etc. etc. etc. What this feels like to me is guys that owned old Harley's, pre '86 models, that would tell you their Harley will run for over a 100K miles, but never mentioned the maintenance, oil leaks, break-downs, and sore legs and time lost just trying to start the darn things.

None of those problems here after 3+ years and 42,000 miles. You're drawing unwarranted conclusions from very limited data. Relax.

[ASU777]

Only speaking about older coaches, I'm not sure I would trade the possible issues with USLD or Biodiesel for the challenges of ethanol in older gasoline engines.

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by vincee

If after reading this post is what I have to look forward to as a first time first camping season DP owner, then I'm tempted to start shopping for a quality Tiffin Allegro Open Road and the tried and true Ford V10 87 octane and $50 home oil changes over the winter offseason. The more I hear about diesel, in particular, Cumins, the more I wonder if I made a mistake buying my Sporstcoach when my DW and I were shopping for a two-year-old Tiffin but couldn't pass up the great deal on the SC and getting into the DP world at a price we could afford. Never met a V10 owner that had to carry spare fuel filters, carry wrenches to tighten pumps, need to add additives, etc. etc. etc. What this feels like to me is guys that owned old Harley's, pre '86 models, that would tell you their Harley will run for over a 100K miles, but never mentioned the maintenance, oil leaks, break-downs, and sore legs and time lost just trying to start the darn things.

So there is no misconceptions here. Motor homes break down and have things go wrong with them. Both gas and diesel. So maybe you are in the wrong game here and need to rethink all of it. We all carry tools, we all fix items when they break and we all bitch about it. If you don't think V-10 owners have their own sets of problems you just haven't looked far enough. They have been known to blow spark plugs out of the heads or you might try this.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/3...worthless.html

The point here is every engine manufacturer has their own set of problems. Cummins engines are a dream compared to some of the old Detroit's or Cats.

Several folks have said there is no real need to add anything in the newer engines and that would include yours. I agree. I now have 16 k on the 2018 coach and had 19 k on my last 2015 coach. I do not add anything to my fuel except a dose of diesel fuel biocide when I lay up for the six months in FL. This has nothing to do with any type of fuel it has to do with Algae that can grow in the fuel. One treatment in the fall on a full tank solves the problem. I carry both Fleetguard fuel filters in their little white boxes and for the 2018 I also have a cartridge for the Detroit Pre Filter - Water Separator as well. Carrying fuel filters is just a convenience. Because you will never know when you get bad fuel. This goes for gas as well. Trash or water in the fuel is trash or water in the fuel, both kinds and it ruins your day. The difference is any auto parts store has a gas filter for you at almost any hour of the day but diesel fuel filters no so much.

Good luck.

[vincee]

No, I don't think I'm in the wrong game. If I'm guilty of anything maybe it's spending to much time on these darn forums and the vast amount of varied subjective opinions covering A to Z.

Yeah, I carry tools too in my rig and I have even amazed myself at some of the maintenance issues I've tackled such as replacing one of the hydraulic stabilizers or swapping out the steps from Coach Steps to Kwikee. But the V10, after two rigs, 40K plus miles and 12 years in all I have had to take care of was the $50 oil changes, chassis lubes and yearly safety inspections. I laugh when I hear of the often-repeated spark plug stories. That was an issue going back maybe 20 years ago, back to Ford's old 460 that was notorious for frozen in or cracked plugs. But from my experiences with the V10 it is one of the best engines ever to come out of Detroit, and, I'm not a Ford man, I've always argued on the GM side of the debate Ford vs. Chevy etc..

So do I need to chill out, yeah probably? I plan to spend the offseason (sad) learning as much as I can or need to about my 6.7 Cumins and the things I need to be aware of heading into the 2020 camping season and hopefully my retirement to enjoy it more.

[NevadaNick]

I have been driving dsl powered pickups since 1985, i have had 2 dp’s and have never carried or changed a filter between regular scheduled maintenance. The only additive i use is Howes when it gets to 0 or below.

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by NevadaNick

I have been driving dsl powered pickups since 1985, i have had 2 dp’s and have never carried or changed a filter between regular scheduled maintenance. The only additive i use is Howes when it gets to 0 or below.

All this hulablu makes me wonder how people got by without all this extra stuff 30 yrs ago.
I once bought an old Case diesel tractor, it had been sitting in a fence row so long a 4" tree was growing up through the frame. I finally got that tree out, drained the old fuel into a funnel over a bucket. Let it sit overnight, poured the diesel off the water, put that same fuel back into the tractor, cleaned out the sediment bowl, installed a new battery and drove it out of the field.

[imnprsd]

RV ownership is like life... It's a process and not an event.

And as far as I am concerned, forums like IRV2.com has saved my "A" lots of times.

Forum participation also can help a stranded RVer and without question does save RV owners a lot of money.

So as to the rest of you who know so much, all I can say is that if you don't have anything helpful to contribute, then why are you?

In this thread I did my best trying to beg questions so I can learn about diesel fuels... and I did. And while I concede it was like pulling teeth at times, we eventually got to the hardcore facts -- at least now I could hang up my hat. Of course, I tried to pay little attention to all the other "no-help" people who chimed-in, because that was pointless. (You know who you are.)

In the end, I hope my summary and conclusions were worth it. ...but my apologies if I did not ask the right questions and that contributed to the monotony.

What I do not understand is why some of you bothered to reply at all. I mean... why bother if you did not learn anything and you have nothing to contribute? And what is the point of trying to tear down the message or spirit of trying to help other people... in this case learn about what is and is not in your diesel fuel?
Regrettably, my guess is that "some of you" do this all the time. (Pity.)

Personally, I would like to think 1,000's of Cummins owners now will feel like they know more about what diesel fuels they are buying at the pump -- and as a spin off topic I introduced to many the suggestion of upgrading to a FASS "Titanium" lift pump to replace the problematic and potentially costly Cummins lift pump.

...But to draw a conclusion like a V-10 is a better alternative to a Cummins DP is ludicrous, because there are so many other variables and benefits to the DP in play.

Note: In 1998, my first coach was a Ford V-10 and it kicked-A over the Chevy big block which had dominated the industry up to that point; but you failed to discuss all the transmission problems with these coaches; and the fact these gas coaches rattled down the road like a tin can being pulled on a string is a whole different topic.

This post was a bout diesel fuel, not DP vs. Gas. So to bring that up is a stupid argument and you know it. Hello... This post is about diesel fuel and in particular Cummins-CAPS running on ULSD. Nuf said.

To clarify my summer trip, I stand corrected. When I decided to group states together it was purely subjective on my part; and I did so to the best of my recollection over several years and I did not mean to imply it was just on trip. But that too was not the point.

My point is that many of us DP owners have been under the impression that B-5 or "no sticker diesel" or #2 diesel is better for your engine, and I did NOT find this was the case in all my travels.

However, I do think storing your RV with the least amount of bio-fuel is a good idea. I also could not correlate better MPG to non-bio fuels. However, what I was able to notice is that my engine performance did seem to vary by state, and that I found that very interesting. ...But if you did not, that's okay, because you might be a know-it-all.

Specifically, I bought this beautiful 2004 Itasca "Horizon" 40AD back in 2015 and there was 59,000 miles on the odometer. And now, at the conclusion of my trip this summer, I just crossed the 100,000 mile mark. That's 41,000 miles in 5-years. (And no I'm sure that's not a record.) But it is a lot of gas at 7.2 MPG.

The shameful part is this: For the first 4-years I was assuming bio-fuels were bad and I thought I picked up some "bad diesel" a couple times, but now I don't think that. What I know is that my Cummins lift pump, which functional, is not the right pump for a DP application -- and the solution is to upgrade to a FASS "Titanium" fuel pump.


I also knew nothing about the FASS fuel pumps other than reading a post here-and-there, and never once did I find an RV repair shop who would explain how they would install a FASS fuel pump on my Freightliner Chassis.

And now, because of this thread, my hope is that many of you now know more about ULSD fuel and what a FASS electric fuel pump is.

Let me be clear, based on my experiences: I think it is very important for Cummins-CAPS owners (Pre-2004/2005) to install a FASS fuel pump ASAP. And I encourage every Cummins-CAPS owner to work with their local RV mechanic or Freightliner or Diesel Performance Shop (the latter would be my choice) and not to be surprised if they never installed on on an RV before.

I wrote a very detailed thread on this subject and I highly recommend you invest in a FASS pump upgrade. And while I strongly suggest Cummins-CAPS owner to upgrade to a FASS pump, you HPFR owners will benefit too!

To be clear: It is because of ULSD fuel that Cummins-CAPS owners should upgrade to a FASS pump and preferably a FASS "Titanium" pump. This has a lot to do with fuel starvation -- which leads to poor injection pump lubrication and poor cooling. And additive while help, but will not deliver much needed fuel when your vacuum deliver system looses negative pressure (suction).

...But again, for you know-it-all's out there, these suggestions may not apply to you.

Finally, I think there are many reasons to participate in a forum discussions, but none of which is based on sewing discord. (Pity.)

Safe motoring to us all!

[96Bounder1st]

I would like to thank you for your observations over time. As a new DP owner I have very little knowledge of what needs to be done to keep this beast happy.
Your write up provides myself with more knowledge to carry on.
Thanks again.


Terry & Pat

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

All this hulablu makes me wonder how people got by without all this extra stuff 30 yrs ago.
I once bought an old Case diesel tractor, it had been sitting in a fence row so long a 4" tree was growing up through the frame. I finally got that tree out, drained the old fuel into a funnel over a bucket. Let it sit overnight, poured the diesel off the water, put that same fuel back into the tractor, cleaned out the sediment bowl, installed a new battery and drove it out of the field.

Ray,

That is all well and good but it is not the case anymore. That old Case had good old Diesel fuel in it that for the most part is hard to come by now. That old Case had a mechanical injection pump. Again hard to come by these days. So that comparison is much like not understanding why it is easier to rebuilt or clean out the carburetor on an old 36 HP VW than the CSI injection on a new VW. Just not comparing apples to apples.

Now there is something to be said for those old engines but then again when the temps went down to the 30's they were a lot harder to start. They don't get the HP out of the cubic inches like the new ones do either. All and all I prefer the newer engines with all of their requirements. All we have to do is learn what they are, which this forum is very useful for, and then apply it to our newer engines.

[imnprsd]

It's true my understanding of what diesel fuel is... and is not... has changed from the start of this thread to the end.

And I had no idea so many people would want to know more, but that makes perfect sense since the marketing of diesel fuel us anything but an exact science.

In this thread, I do not think you need to start from the beginning to find out what you need to know about buying diesel fuel. Rather, just read my summary as posted a few posts prior.

To be clear: I am not as afraid of buying Bio-diesel as I once was; and if the experts are right then I actually feel better filling up with bio-diesel because I am a 2003 Cummins-ISC-CAPS owner and "lubricity" is my main concern.

Moreover, after traveling almost 10,000 miles this summer. I really paid attention to MPG and my engine performance; and never once did I feel buying Diesel #2 in the Northeast turned-out to be better than the fuel I bought in Texas a B-5 or even B-20.

What I did find is that the quality of fuel varied by region -- and I have NO IDEA why?

==> Can any EXPERT explain why diesel fuel quality would vary by region vs. the labels that regulate diesel fuel sales (#2, No Sticker, B-5 and B-20).

[Itchytoe]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

==> Can any EXPERT explain why diesel fuel quality would vary by region vs. the labels that regulate diesel fuel sales (#2, No Sticker, B-5 and B-20).

I don't know about that whole expert thing, but I believe the variations you're experiencing by region are simply because you are in a different region. Altitude makes a difference in performance, especially in naturally aspirated vehicles. Elevation changes also make a difference. The long straight and level roads on the gulf coast are ideal for high fuel economy. The twisty, steep roads in the Smoky Mountains are perfect for making your engine thirsty. You're likely noticing the country changing, not the fuel changing.


There are some small differences between the fuels each individual refinery makes, like how there are variations between two batches of cookies. You would not be able to discern those differences just by how your engine sounds or performs any more than you could tell if your kid ate today's cookies or one from yesterday based on how long they play outside before getting thirsty.