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Old 04-19-2016, 10:12 PM   #43
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(Louder klaxon horn sound here)

First 'safe lot' for homeless living in vehicles opens | KING5.com

"The city provides 24/7 security, access to limited electricity, bathrooms, hand-washing stations and even a coffeemaker."
Ok. So you're still mostly wrong about the first claim you made.
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:16 PM   #44
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1. Thank you Alvo. The world takes on a new perspective, when actual people with actual faces and names are whom we are speaking about, not just groups or classifications of people.

2. The problem with cities providing a place for people to park and use porta potties, is that while it is provided as a stop gap for people in dire situations to have a minimal safety net, it will be abused by those who will take advantage.

Some on this site have even hinted to that very thing. It is part of human nature that when a thing is offered to those who 'need' it, another will take it, because they 'want' it. Karl Marx spoke of a society where people gave that which they were able, and only took that which they needed. He lived in the capitalist western cultures, because his society only works with bees, and not humans.

3. I might offer that the difference between a homeless person and a full timer is if they chose it or not. If you look at your resources, and choose to live in an RV, either because you have resources you choose not to use now, or have only enough to live in an RV, you are a full timer.
If you find no choice, if you cannot survive otherwise, you may be homeless.

But even this is not absolute, as you may choose a homeless shelter, or a jail, or whatever. So, my statements are horribly over simplified.

4. I am working, but have had some major family setbacks in the past months, and while I plan to live in my house for another year or two, I have also considered selling it and moving full time into my MH. I would technically be homeless, but still working, and would arrange for a legal and appropriate place to park (or places to park) and do not accept charity that is better spent of those with less means.

So, I will be one of those working full timers.


It was well stated when this whole topic was said to be very complicated and not easily solved. A thriving economy will help, but there will always be those with more and those with less. Sometimes those with less are there because of situations beyond their control, or at least beyond their understanding. Sometimes those with less are there because of their choices, or because of situations they did not take the effort to control. Either way, there is no one solution for making their lot in life easier. It is my opinion that the solutions lie more in providing more opportunities, rather than more charities.
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:20 PM   #45
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Homeless has such a negative ring to it, I much prefer to call myself living in an alternative life style.
I think that one has been taken.

I like to call it a nomadic life style, and it's one that I've dreamed of from an early age.

My very first motor home/RV was a step van that I put a convertible couch in the back of.

I had not been introduced to the RV markets and had never seen a camper at that time.

But it was still a concept that just came natural to me. It's like getting back to the basics of life and survival, and to those who know the way you will always make it in times of diversity, and come out stronger because of it.

Have a great day
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:22 PM   #46
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2. The problem with cities providing a place for people to park and use porta potties, is that while it is provided as a stop gap for people in dire situations to have a minimal safety net, it will be abused by those who will take advantage.

Some on this site have even hinted to that very thing. It is part of human nature that when a thing is offered to those who 'need' it, another will take it, because they 'want' it.
You are correct.

However, in the Seattle homeless RV parking camps, they must be approved and each camper works with a social worker to get work, more permanent housing, and other services they need. If they break the rules or stop participating in the program, they get thrown out.

So yes, some will try to take undue advantage. And they will get kicked to the curb if they do.
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:29 PM   #47
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You are correct.

However, in the Seattle homeless RV parking camps, they must be approved and each camper works with a social worker to get work, more permanent housing, and other services they need. If they break the rules or stop participating in the program, they get thrown out.

So yes, some will try to take undue advantage. And they will get kicked to the curb if they do.
Good to hear that some quality thought and the requisite action to make these work went into it...
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:35 PM   #48
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Having dealt with this issue from the City side of things and having first hand knowledge in working with the homeless, and providing services for them, my perspective is a little different. There are two groups of Homeless people. The first are those people who were once gainfully employed, and had a bad stretch where they lost jobs, had medical issues, ect. and just had to walk away from the life they were used too. They may have got another job, but aren't in a situation where they can afford a house or apartment, and they adapted to a different lifestyle, much like Alvo did(These people either paid taxes at one time or still do).

The second group, and more prevalent, are those who have for a variety of reasons ended up on the streets, whether it's alcohol/drugs/ life of crime. The second group generally prefers to live the homeless life style so they can continue a life of no responsibility and just take whatever comes their way. No matter what resources you provide for them they will most likely never get off the streets because they really don't want to, and are usually so impaired by drugs/alcohol they really don't care(these people don't pay taxes). These people will also get qualified people to sign them in, who never actually stay in the RV area, to get around any City requirements or rules.

The problem is most Cities really want to help the homeless, and try very hard to provide services for both groups. There are numerous Churches and other non profit groups that work with the Cities to provide numerous resources to both groups. The first group generally will take those resources provided and make good use out of the opportunity and work towards getting back on their feet, and getting their family off the streets or out of motels. The problem is the second group far outnumbers the first group and they will take those same resources and not make any effort to better their situation. They will keep taking whatever they can until it stops and then move to another area/place and continue to waste resources provided. I know that sounds harsh but it is the truth.

So this gets me to the topic of Cities setting up RV parks for the homeless. Hopefully you can see where as hard as Cities try they will be taken advantage of. The ones who really need and want the assistance will follow the rules, and make something out of the opportunity provided. They will stay for whatever time is allowed, keep their area clean, not bring in alcohol/drugs, or crime.

Then the second group starts coming in and moving their tents or broken down RV's in and will continue to take advantage with no real want to get off the streets or better themselves. They are taking up the resources that the first group could really use. Generally they will bring the drugs/crime along with them.Then someone gets told to leave or someone gets hurt and all the lawsuits start to come in. And then all the taxpayers are complaining because even if you don't pay out on a lawsuit, it still cost the City money to fight it, and many times they will pay out a few thousand dollars just because it's cheaper than to fight it. No City operates for free and their budgets are limited too.

And then as dexters comments that would be a great place for people to stay while traveling and "cut down their traveling costs". That would really be taking advantage of a City that was attempting to help their homeless population, and a complete waste of resources available. And trust me there are many people that wouldn't hesitate to do that just for the convenience. They should be ashamed of themselves to even consider driving one of their nice fancy MH's into a place like these just for convenience.

So sometimes Cities try things that work and others that don't. But by and far the ones that don't work, are usually well thought out, and their hearts are in the right place, but taken advantage of, which brings an end to the program. Please don't think I'm not sensitive to the homeless needs and feel for them, as I have spent more time than most working with them, and working towards solutions.
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:44 PM   #49
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Having dealt with this issue from the City side of things and having first hand knowledge in working with the homeless, and providing services for them, my perspective is a little different. There are two groups of Homeless people.

SNIP

And then as dexters comments that would be a great place for people to stay while traveling and "cut down their traveling costs". That would really be taking advantage of a City that was attempting to help their homeless population. And trust me there would be people that wouldn't hesitate to do that just for the convenience. they should be ashamed.
Se my comment related to this a couple of posts up from this one. There are also links in this thread as to how the program is set up and pretty good local TV news piece on the program, how folks get into it, and how they participate in it.

The TL;DR version is you *cannot* simply show up and move in. This is not free boondocking for just anyone. And camp residents must follow the rules and participate in the program to get more stable housing and other requirements while the second group you talk about would get tossed out to make room for folks that can work with the system in place.

It's all fairly new in Seattle. I'm waiting to see how it works out. Will this reduce homelessness in Seattle? Might not make a noticeable difference. Will it help some people to get more security in their life? I'm certain it will help. Time will tell.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:40 PM   #50
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As someone who falls into several of the above categories, I have seen quite a diverse grouping of folks who by government standards are homeless.
We get past that issue by using a relatives address. Currently we are staying at that address. So not a fib on our part.

Back in 1997 DW and I found ourselves out of work and no place to live. We tried the day labor route and nightly hotel with communal bathroom. After a few weeks we were getting nowhere. We found a homeless camp outside of town. I had got a day labor job that was almost full time. Some of the others we met there were hobos. They chose that life and were what seemed as pretty content. We would leave what stuff we had and be gone from 4:30 am till about 10:30 pm. Nothing was ever taken, including my couple of beers. Well we did loose a duffle bag full of food to some 'coons we forgot to feed one morning.

We have stayed a few times at Wallmart, the best probably being the one outside of Sandpoint Id. We have also used Casino's and rest areas. However, we stopped at a rest area in Cali off of 99, and the signed read no overnight parking. We did stay the night anyway and was never hassled.

I have an '87 MH. The Wife drives our Expedition, and we have ended up with 3 Harbor Freight Trailers. I am hoping to sell them over the next few months. Uncle built us a 8 x 16 foot trailer that I will be enclosing, setting up with my wood work shop as well as our gear for prospecting, lapidary and bead work.

I was injured on the job back in 2003 and lost my job and everything else in the crash of '08. So now we are nomads splitting our time between Washington, Montana, and Arizona.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:56 PM   #51
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This is a very interesting and informative thread. I can only say "There, but for the grace of God, go I". By the standards of most on this Forum, I am quite poor.....but this thread showed me that by the standards of some on this Forum, I am quite well off!! I will go to bed tonight counting my blessings, thank you.......
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:58 PM   #52
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It's all fairly new in Seattle. I'm waiting to see how it works out. Will this reduce homelessness in Seattle? Might not make a noticeable difference. Will it help some people to get more security in their life? I'm certain it will help. Time will tell.
That was my whole point, anything will help, and Cities are trying but once it's abused they generally disappear. There have been many attempts to help the homeless, and most Cities have not given up. I've been a part of developing rules for how resources are dealt out and who can stay in low income housing ect. You would not believe how the second group I talk about will work around those rules, like you describe, to abuse the resources available, and then the programs disappear as it becomes a problem rather than a solution. I think we are both saying the same thing.
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:33 AM   #53
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We feel for folks like this, but we understand it creates a mess of things for RVers who actually may need to park on the street when visiting friends or family. We just had this exact problem in California, as the entire west coast seems to have a particular issue with "vagrant" RVers.

Fortunately, another kind RVer was willing to take on our motorhome while we house/dogsit in sunny San Diego. Our hosts didn't seem to care about city/HOA rules (or neighborhood perception), but we realized it was not appropriate for our 22-year-old RV to be on the street alongside million-dollar homes.
I submit that you were smart to not accept your hosts hospitality...

San Diego's issue with folks living in RV's on public streets was so worse than the rest of SoCal, that the city government opted to enact the Temporary Overnight RV Program (TORVP).

The city supplimented state law stating that when any RV (or any oversized vehicle like a boat on a trailer) is parked on any public street after 2am, it can be towed...no warning, no move-it within 72hrs requests, nothing - it's gone.

The exception is a RV registered under the TORVP...owned by a resident, parked at the residence (yes, they want a copy of the registration at application to verify address), and which the owner has paid the $1.25 plus 75cent processing fee ($2 each permit), each night for a nightly permit.
https://www.sandiego.gov/parking/permits

Just a phone call from a neighbor would see any offending RV towed...no argument about it...no visitors...sorry.

This was a reaction by residents who had RV's parking every night in neighborhoods from the beach communities to the inland 'burbs.

"Stealth Camping" is still done in these parts, and mostly in the industrial areas. But it's not like it was.

Like it or not, it has cleaned-up the parks and city streets...and I would guess it is a sign of things to come for other destination towns.

Safe travels
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:12 AM   #54
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There is a relatively new Yellow/White Toaster style Winnebago that I see parked in many Walmart/HEB/Apartment lots and even some local streets.

It sticks out like a sore thumb, I'm surprised there hasn't been some push back (this has been going on for > 6 months)
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:25 AM   #55
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What problem(s) are they causing?
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:51 AM   #56
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Do you know if RV parks - not mobile home - occupancy is high? I saw a youtube video where a woman has a job and lives in her RV in a RV park. She has to move every X weeks for a couple of days due to local laws.
In the metro areas of Los Angeles and Orange County there are a few RVParks that have full time residents. Most have been around since the dustbowl influx into California in the 1920's-30's and are NOT listed in any RVers guides, maps, gps, etc. You only find them when you drive past them or by word of mouth. They are tucked into residential neighborhoods, or not immediately noticed on main streets.

- The older and much less expensive locations are always at about 90% occupancy. They are typically in sketchy neighborhoods or locations. There is a usually a waiting list to get a spot. Monthly rates cost about 60% of renting an apartment in the same neighborhood. These never show up in Google searches or are listed in RVPark directories.

- The much nicer RVParks, (better locations, a pool, recreation room, aundry facilities, activities, larger spaces), cost much more and usually have about 70% fulltimer occupancy because they cost dramatically much more than the previously mentioned locations. Monthly rates cost as much as 100% to 130% renting an apartment in the same neighborhood, (but you get to live in your own RV). These always appear in a Google search or any printed RVPark directory.

I am a homeless person! I fulltime in my motorhome, and work a full time executive job in the area.

The RVPark is full of homeless working people like me!

Many are recently divorced men, (gee, no surprise there)! Some are utility or petroleum industry workers that travel where the jobs are, and others are fulltiming retirees that would rather still work real part time jobs to keep busy, and then venture on weekends and holidays from their RVPark base camp, instead of constantly driving throughout the country or seasonally like a snowbird. And some, (like me), have property that they could live in way too far away for a daily commute, or out of State.

Interestingly, all of my fulltiming homeless neighbors still own real estate in some shape or form. Nobody just "sold their stick home" when they became a homeless fulltimer. They simply do not live most of the time in a stick home. Most folks, (like me who own apartments and rental homes), rent out their old home or have kids or family living there.

The real poor "homeless" that we see parked around the Exposition Park/USC campus, Venice, and Orange County neighborhoods are clearly defined by their lack of steady income. My neighbors and I still either work a job, own businesses, or have passive income streams, (as well as pensions, 401Ks, trusts, etc). The poor "homeless" subsist on public welfare, handouts, little jobs for extra cash, and crime.
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