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Old 04-23-2016, 01:03 AM   #85
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The problem I see with the "Bootstrap Theory" and homeless folks is that since a large part of the homeless population has myriad problems that are out of their control (mental illness, disability, etc.) then how can one that is simply unable to pull themselves out just do so?

If you remove the chronically mentally ill and disabled from the population, and the folks that remain are truly mobile, meaning they can afford to relocate to where the jobs are, then bootstrap theory could be applied.

But then what theory do you apply to those that cannot, physically and/or mentally pull themselves out of the state they are in?

Applying a theory (really should be called a hypothesis BTW) that seems to me to require a *set* of abilities and means to prevent or reverse a condition such as homelessness to those most likely to not possess those skills and means to try to prove a point is, at best, not scientific or specific to only one place.

Take the Portland OR area. If someone is disabled and cannot work, and gets $1100/month SSI payment tries to rent a 1BR apartment that has advertised rent of $950/month, they will have $150 left after rent for all other living expenses. The example of my friend Wade is that he cannot work due to health and disability, but the rent on his home, that he has lived in for five years, was nearly doubled, from $600 to $1100. He is 72, and his SS check is $860. Where are the bootstraps he should use to pull himself out of losing his home when all advertised rents for a one bedroom apartment are $800+/month and Section 8 housing has a waiting list 13 months long min.? I need to tell him where those bootstraps are right away so he can get a place to live.

BTW, he has a $100 RV that doesn't have a sink, sewage tanks or toilet. No $1-Whatever Thousand RV for him in the cards.
1. This is really not the place for this debate.

2. I cannot tell you of a solution to a situation that I do not know about. You laid out some data and have painted me into a corner. I hope you find a solution for your friend, or more importantly, I hope he finds a solution for himself.

3. The first step to the solution to any problem is to decide to overcome that problem. This works for alcoholism, and for learning to walk with my bum knee. (damaged in the Army)

4. I know people with 10 problems that find a way to do a lot, and people with 2 problems that find a way to convince themselves that the world has beat them. They look for solutions externally, when all solutions come from within...

5. We do not have to agree. I know I do not have all the answers for everyone's problems. I don't even have all the answers for all my own problems. But I do know that no one else has the answers for my problems either. I do believe we have the ability to create our own solutions. Some issues are harder than others, but I know in my heart that all my solutions will have to come from within. Sometimes that solution requires me to go and get others to help me. But it always has to have start by me taking responsibility for myself and my life and everything in it.
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Old 04-23-2016, 01:12 AM   #86
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You laid out some data and have painted me into a corner.
That truly wasn't my intention. I sincerely hoped you had something that would help my friend, and others. I'm honestly apologizing that it seems like I was setting you up.

Poking holes in someone else's hypothesis isn't a personal attack. Please don't see it that way, because this isn't personal between you and I or anyone else.
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Old 04-23-2016, 10:51 AM   #87
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The problem I see with the "Bootstrap Theory" and homeless folks is that since a large part of the homeless population has myriad problems that are out of their control (mental illness, disability, etc.) then how can one that is simply unable to pull themselves out just do so?

If you remove the chronically mentally ill and disabled from the population, and the folks that remain are truly mobile, meaning they can afford to relocate to where the jobs are, then bootstrap theory could be applied.

But then what theory do you apply to those that cannot, physically and/or mentally pull themselves out of the state they are in?

Applying a theory (really should be called a hypothesis BTW) that seems to me to require a *set* of abilities and means to prevent or reverse a condition such as homelessness to those most likely to not possess those skills and means to try to prove a point is, at best, not scientific or specific to only one place.

Take the Portland OR area. If someone is disabled and cannot work, and gets $1100/month SSI payment tries to rent a 1BR apartment that has advertised rent of $950/month, they will have $150 left after rent for all other living expenses. The example of my friend Wade is that he cannot work due to health and disability, but the rent on his home, that he has lived in for five years, was nearly doubled, from $600 to $1100. He is 72, and his SS check is $860. Where are the bootstraps he should use to pull himself out of losing his home when all advertised rents for a one bedroom apartment are $800+/month and Section 8 housing has a waiting list 13 months long min.? I need to tell him where those bootstraps are right away so he can get a place to live.

BTW, he has a $100 RV that doesn't have a sink, sewage tanks or toilet. No $1-Whatever Thousand RV for him in the cards.
The solution here is simple...move.

There is a current general planning debate about "fair" housing that ay require zoning specific to low price housing to be built inside the areas where the million dollar homes are to be fair for all which is bs.

Most of the folks who bust their bones to achieve the goal of living there should not have their property values impacted by a city that insists on low income section 8 housing being built inside the area resulting in lower property values.

If the rent is too expensive in some place than one cannot live there and must live where they can afford.

Simple and easy.

Most of us are tired of the folks who stand on the road with signs then later camp out in places causing damage without regard to the owners.

Those that need help and will use it correctly should get it while those who break the rules and just abuse the system with no intent on improving their situation should be placed into a controlled environment where their health can be monitored and adjusted as well as possibly job skills learned.

There are jobs that have skill sets at all levels...takes little skill to chop weeds in an orchard.

Those who act as law breakers should be treated as such and removed from the street.

Those who can be helped should be as they later become tax payers.
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Old 04-23-2016, 11:16 AM   #88
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The solution here is simple...move.
A simplistic and/or over-simplified solution isn't so simple in planning or practice. If we use the example of my friend Wade, where does a sick and disabled 72 year old man move to live securely on $860/month? I ask sincerely because I don't know *where* to look for a place like this. Does anyone know if there is a resource to find and compare housing, services, etc., for low income seniors to have a more affordable and secure place to live?
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Old 04-23-2016, 11:27 AM   #89
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The solution here is simple...move.

There is a current general planning debate about "fair" housing that ay require zoning specific to low price housing to be built inside the areas where the million dollar homes are to be fair for all which is bs.

Most of the folks who bust their bones to achieve the goal of living there should not have their property values impacted by a city that insists on low income section 8 housing being built inside the area resulting in lower property values.

If the rent is too expensive in some place than one cannot live there and must live where they can afford.

Simple and easy.

Most of us are tired of the folks who stand on the road with signs then later camp out in places causing damage without regard to the owners.

Those that need help and will use it correctly should get it while those who break the rules and just abuse the system with no intent on improving their situation should be placed into a controlled environment where their health can be monitored and adjusted as well as possibly job skills learned.

There are jobs that have skill sets at all levels...takes little skill to chop weeds in an orchard.

Those who act as law breakers should be treated as such and removed from the street.

Those who can be helped should be as they later become tax payers.
This is very true, most of us have not always been able to live where we wanted, or have all the things we ever wanted. I can remember when we were young living in apartments where we didn't want to, driving older cars ect. because we couldn't afford better at the time. People who had nice homes, toys and RV's were the "Rich" people because they could afford the nice homes and luxuries.

I continued to work hard, get my education, developed a career, worked my way up the ladder, worked all the crappy shifts/assignments, a lot of overtime ect. Before I knew it I could afford better, but only then and after diligently saving my money did I move on to better areas, buy a house, and toys that I could afford and were not out of my budget. Over the years and into retirement we continued to live in this concept to get us to being where we are today and financially sound. It's called paying your dues.

Then add into it the criminal element and the abuse of alcohol and or drugs, and you have a pool of people who just don't accept responsibility for their actions, or lack of and then the sense of entitlement kicks in. The expectation is then that the "Government" should take care of them.

Cities do so much to help the Homeless situation, and are not inconsiderate of their needs or the fact that some of the people got there by no fault of their own, and you definitely want to help those people get back on their feet. But this is always at the expense of those who have worked hard to get where they are. Taking this back to the topic of Homeless living in RV's there are some beautiful State parks we used to go to all the time, but don't anymore because the homeless have taken them over as a place to live. When I take my grandkids camping I just don't want them thinking that is normal, or seeing the crime they commit. The last time we went there was a drunken brawl between several homeless, that ended up in multiple stabbings, and several people going to jail. Just not what I go camping to see, or want my grandkids exposed to.

And again before you rant, in my career I have spent more time than most working with the homeless, volunteer/charity groups and the City to help find solutions and resources for them, so I am sympathetic, but sometimes people don't want to hear the truth.
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Old 04-23-2016, 12:01 PM   #90
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There doesn't appear to be anything fresh in this discussion, and i have been guilty in the past of beating dead horses. I'll watch it to see if anything helpful or new pops up, but I'm gonna be helping my younger brother to get his family moved into their first RV, a $20k Dutch Star that I hope will help keep them safe and allow them to go where he can find work and some security. If anyone knows some helpful info about a 2001 Dutch Star, swing on over to the Newmar section of this forum and see if you can answer some of the questions we have. Thanks!
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Old 04-23-2016, 12:43 PM   #91
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I know I do not have all the answers for everyone's problems.
Mmmmmm . . .

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The bootstrap theory is valid. It works. It is the only thing that does work.
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:09 PM   #92
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As I see it, there are two camps here. Those who have worked hard, taken responsibility for themselves, both their failings and their successes, and think others should do it too. (bootstrapping life)

And others, who want to blame others for things that happened to them or their friends, through no fault of their own. For these people, it is always someone else's responsibility to fill in the gaps in their lives. These people will not get or accept that taking responsibility for ones own situation, and how to fix it, is the only permanent solution.

For the latter group, they feel that taking stuff from the first group and giving it to the second group is the answer. I do not agree.

I believe smarter people than I have stated it well. Eventually, you will run out of other people's money...

There are no transporter beams in life. No one just appears someplace. Everywhere you are is a result of decisions you made in the past that brought you to this place. If you make good decisions, you are more likely to wind up in places you like. If you make bad decisions, you are more likely to wind up in places you do not like.

Add to that the whole thing is a game, and not everyone gets dealt the same cards. Sometimes you get dealt a bad hand and have to play it anyway. You can still take responsibility for how you play that hand.

Or you can continue to blame others. Your choice
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Old 04-23-2016, 06:43 PM   #93
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I think it's time to close this one down...
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Old 04-23-2016, 06:54 PM   #94
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As I see it, there are two camps here. Those who have worked hard, taken responsibility for themselves, both their failings and their successes, and think others should do it too. (bootstrapping life)

And others, who want to blame others for things that happened to them or their friends, through no fault of their own. For these people, it is always someone else's responsibility to fill in the gaps in their lives. These people will not get or accept that taking responsibility for ones own situation, and how to fix it, is the only permanent solution.

For the latter group, they feel that taking stuff from the first group and giving it to the second group is the answer. I do not agree.

I believe smarter people than I have stated it well. Eventually, you will run out of other people's money...

There are no transporter beams in life. No one just appears someplace. Everywhere you are is a result of decisions you made in the past that brought you to this place. If you make good decisions, you are more likely to wind up in places you like. If you make bad decisions, you are more likely to wind up in places you do not like.

Add to that the whole thing is a game, and not everyone gets dealt the same cards. Sometimes you get dealt a bad hand and have to play it anyway. You can still take responsibility for how you play that hand.

Or you can continue to blame others. Your choice

completely agree, well said. not only applies to your place in life, but every aspect of your life. quit your whining and do something about it on your own
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:20 PM   #95
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. . . not everyone gets dealt the same cards. Sometimes you get dealt a bad hand and have to play it anyway. You can still take responsibility for how you play that hand.
What about all the mentally ill who were dumped on the streets as a result of "deinstitutionalisation"?
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:13 PM   #96
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What about all the mentally ill who were dumped on the streets as a result of "deinstitutionalisation"?
If you see a problem, step up and do something about it.

My mother in law got sick with Alzheimers, all of her children were hesitant to act, then looked for a facility that could provide her with care.

Instead, I took the lead to have us provide a series of assets that increased as she needed more. First, we moved her oldest grandson into her two family house, then we moved her into senior housing (as we had taken her license) and at first made arrangements with her neighbor to keep an eye on her, then had daily assistants come into her home to check on her and help with meals as well as a daily visit (on a rotating schedule among the whole family) from family. When she declined more, I modified my bathroom near the guest room, making it into a small suite. We took her into my home, and she had a sense of who her daughter was when she moved in, she had no idea later when we finally moved her into a hospice facility.

This was not easy. It was hard on my wife (her daughter) and my kids as well as me, but it was the right thing to do. We did not wait for the government to do it, (she was old enough for medicare or whatever...) as I really believe that the best solution is local and personal. Our choices gave real quality of life to her last years.

I am not looking for credit, just pointing out that while there are frequently no easy answers, there are always choices you can make that at least will be less bad than other choices.

If I truly had a friend in need, I would try to help him find answers, not tell people on line that he should not be held responsible for the situation he is in. If I could not find good answers, I would find less bad answers. If I can find no good paths to take, I would take him on my path with me. That is my understanding of how life should work, and how I strive to live my life.

It is easier to blame others than to step up and do something about issues. Contrary to a current popular concept, doing the easy thing, or doing only what feels good, is not only shallow, but rarely gets you to a good place or provides for the future. Personal discipline eventually pays off far better than personal indulgence.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:43 PM   #97
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I think it's time to close this one down...
I prefer to leave those sort of decisions to the Moderator.
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:28 PM   #98
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My mother in law got sick with Alzheimers, all of her children were hesitant to act, then looked for a facility that could provide her with care.
I know you mean well, but for the hundreds, possibly thousands, of homeless mentally ill your solution won't work.
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