Ignoring the Obvious-The Electric Future of the RV Industry

[radar]

Originally Posted by redhooker

Aside from the obvious fact that RV manufacturers actually build ZERO engines and less than 5% even build chassis, which puts absolutely ZERO responsibility on them to build an electric motor home...

There is also ZERO proof that going all electric would actually be better for the environment. The chemical and rare earth metals required to produce the “greenies” beloved batteries generate more hazardous waste than a comparable modern combustion engine. Most people don’t understand technology is still quite a ways off from doing this on a mass scale. It’s hopefully not impossible, but we are a long ways off yet.

What rare earth metals are in a Lithium ion battery. I’m not a chemist.

[winniman]

Originally Posted by mobilemike

It takes more energy to produce hydrogen than it makes. Making hydrogen produces massive amounts of carbon. So in the end hydrogen is less green.

How does it create massive amounts of carbon if you make hydrogen through electrolysis. No carbon is used. It may not be the most efficient way to make it, but the problem with green energy solutions is they are not continuous enough to supply a steady stream of electricity. Sometimes the wind doesn't blow. Sometimes the sun doesn't shine. Sometimes the sea is calm. Geo thermal might be a little more reliable. Iceland produces a quarter of their electricity by geothermal. At least you could make hydrogen when you have the excess electricity being produced. Lots of times you will see a wind farm, and only half the turbines are going. The other half could be used to make hydrogen then stored. Im not a scientist, but any system that has zero emissions going in, and coming out has to at least be considered. Until we come up with an environmentally friendly way to produce electricity, I don't think electric vehicles are any better than gas engines we are trying to replace. Pollution is pollution, whether or not it comes from your tailpipe, or the electrical generating plant. We all breath the same air eventually.

[rarebear.nm]

Originally Posted by radar

What rare earth metals are in a Lithium ion battery. I’m not a chemist.

There are multiple chemistries used to make lithium based batteries. Rare earth elements used in EVs is mainly in the magnets of the electric motors not in the battery. A common type lithium battery uses both cobalt and nickel. Bother are toxic but are not rare earth elements. No question present methods of mining rare earth elements is environmentally damaging. China controls the worlds largest percentage of rare earth elements. Before jumping on the evils of the "greenies' lithium batteries used in EVs, remember all of the lithium batteries most of us use everyday in most of our portable electronic stuff, including some of our RVs. I suspect very few people dispose of the lithium batteries in our phones, tablets, tools, toys, etc do so in an environmentally responsible way. At least most EV battery packs either get a second life or are recycled. Some of these newer plants can recycle 100% of the lithium, cobalt and nickel. EV battery packs are considered expired when they won't hold more than 80% of their rated charge. At that point many are reused as load buffering devices on our power grids. 80% of rated capacity is fine for that need. The EV industry as a whole is well aware of the risks in using these materials in batteries and motors and are researching replacement options.

As for hydrogen fuel. There are at least four electrolysis methods that can be used. Some use electrical power some use only the high temperature waste heat from electric power generation. Burning hydrogen as a fuel in either an ICE or a fuel cell does not produce carbon as stated above. Its a simple H2 + O2 reaction that produces H2O, plain old fashion water.

Wind turbines appear to be at best only about 40% of their name plate capacity rating over their life span. In some cases those idle turbines we see are idle because the power transmission lines nearby do not have enough capacity to transmit all of the power the wind farm can produce. So some equipment must be idled. Now some of those turbines may be down for service work or other reasons as well. If folks were to build a hydrogen production plant in conjunction with even off grid wind farms and/or solar farms very clean hydrogen fuel could be produced. Heck you could even burn the H2 in an ICE based vehicle.

For some folks that bash government tax breaks for the renewable/EV industry I suggest you research how much oil companies and fossil fuel power plants get in tax breaks and other handouts. Don't forget we all had to bail out the big 3 auto makers a few years back. Maybe all government give aways to the energy and auto industries should be zeroed out and let the private sector figure it out.

[BTFT]

Originally Posted by ThePowells

Maybe you should submit your resume' to Spartan, IHC, Freightliner, KW, and Paccar where you can quickly become the chief engineer and designer and then have them enter into a collaboration with a major RV builder to usher in the era of zero emission recreation.

While I appreciate your kind Job tips I have done my time working. As a Mechanical/Aerospace engineer for the first half of my career working for among others Boeing, TRW, IBM and yes even once PACCCAR (Where I helped design a fold able bridge to be deployed from a tracked vehicle) then in business for myself in Consulting and Engineering Management Consulting.


I have designed Ground support Equipment for the Space Shuttle, Floors for Boeing Aircraft (every time you walk on one you are walking on something I helped design) and was part of a private launch vehicle project for which I was chiefly responsible for Stage attachment and separation and payload mounting and separation/launch once in low/mid earth orbit....Then I retired at 53. ( I am now 66)

Perhaps I am not, with my humble talents, qualified to have an opinion on ELECTRIC vehicles. But I gave it my best shot....

[barmcd]

Originally Posted by jcussen

Yes in Texas, one of the biggest providers advertise "free nights or weekends", only catch is you will pay 14.5 cents a kw/hr instead of the normal 8.5 cents per kw/hr, you would pay with the full time plan. Might come out ahead if you have to charge two Tesla's every night though.
Many power plants just shut down when electrical demand falls.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant

Most of the baseline plants in Texas are coal so they run all the time. Do you know it takes 24 hours to turn on a coal fired plant? They can't just turn them off. While they aren't particularly efficient or clean, they're fairly cheap. The peak loads are powered by gas turbines which can be turned on and off quickly. We have a lot of wind energy, but its erratic as is solar.

I just renewed my energy plan and couldn't find anything near 8.5. One of the issues I have is I don't average 500 kWh per month so the really cheap kWh plans are not available to me. I pay 11.5 and get free nights. The only thing electric in our home are the lights and A/C. Even in July and August our bill is only $120 a month. Six months of the year it runs less than $50.

I'd love to have a Tesla charging for free every night and might in the near future.

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by BTFT

While I appreciate your kind Job tips I have done my time working. As a Mechanical/Aerospace engineer for the first half of my career working for among others Boeing, TRW, IBM and yes even once PACCCAR (Where I helped design a fold able bridge to be deployed from a tracked vehicle) then in business for myself in Consulting and Engineering Management Consulting.


I have designed Ground support Equipment for the Space Shuttle, Floors for Boeing Aircraft (every time you walk on one you are walking on something I helped design) and was part of a private launch vehicle project for which I was chiefly responsible for Stage attachment and separation and payload mounting and separation/launch once in low/mid earth orbit....Then I retired at 53. ( I am now 66)

Perhaps I am not, with my humble talents, qualified to have an opinion on ELECTRIC vehicles. But I gave it my best shot....

Congratulations on a relatively early retirement. We all have opinions, you know how that goes.

In my opinion, quite a few folks here gave some answers to your questions about why the RV industry will be slow, if ever, to adopt electricity as a means of propulsion. Primarily, it does not allow them to produce a product that meets the needs of their targeted buyers.

Right now we’re neck deep in fossil fuels and diesel works quite well in a large motorhome. The more EV big rigs that hit the road, the more diesel for our coaches. If anything it will extend the longevity of diesel RV’s. Some would call it The Law of Unintended Consequences, I’d call it the obvious.

In the mean time, most of those batteries will be getting their energy from generating stations powered by fossil fuels or nuclear.

[MRUSA14]

Originally Posted by barmcd

If you can wait to charge your electric car overnight, you can actually get free or nearly free electricity in most areas. The difference in price of kWh at 4 pm and 1 am is astounding. They have to run the generators at maintenance level and have lots of electricity with no customers. I can still get electric plans with free nights.

Maybe that happens where you live, but where I live the electricity rate is the same 24 hrs a day.

Even where you live, if everybody in town started charging their cars every night, the electric rates would cease to be free. They might even become higher than the daytime rate to pay for the necessary new infrastructure..

[jcussen]

Originally Posted by barmcd

Most of the baseline plants in Texas are coal so they run all the time. Do you know it takes 24 hours to turn on a coal fired plant? They can't just turn them off. While they aren't particularly efficient or clean, they're fairly cheap. The peak loads are powered by gas turbines which can be turned on and off quickly. We have a lot of wind energy, but its erratic as is solar.

I just renewed my energy plan and couldn't find anything near 8.5. One of the issues I have is I don't average 500 kWh per month so the really cheap kWh plans are not available to me. I pay 11.5 and get free nights. The only thing electric in our home are the lights and A/C. Even in July and August our bill is only $120 a month. Six months of the year it runs less than $50.

I'd love to have a Tesla charging for free every night and might in the near future.

There are 40 different electrical providers in all of Texas. But not all providers cover all areas, and because of all the competition, rates change constantly.
I am locked into a Gexa plan @ 8.5 cents if I keep consumption between 1000 and 2000 kw/hours.
The current Reliant plan in my area for unlimited nights is 14.4 cents, but is based on using at least 2000 kw/hrs a month, for the 1000 kw/hr plan, goes up to 14.8 cents, so your 11.5 is a very good deal. But have a friend in Austin on a electrical co-op and believe he pays about 7 cents a kw/hr.

[radar]

Originally Posted by rarebear.nm

There are multiple chemistries used to make lithium based batteries. Rare earth elements used in EVs is mainly in the magnets of the electric motors not in the battery. A common type lithium battery uses both cobalt and nickel. Bother are toxic but are not rare earth elements. No question present methods of mining rare earth elements is environmentally damaging. China controls the worlds largest percentage of rare earth elements. Before jumping on the evils of the "greenies' lithium batteries used in EVs, remember all of the lithium batteries most of us use everyday in most of our portable electronic stuff, including some of our RVs. I suspect very few people dispose of the lithium batteries in our phones, tablets, tools, toys, etc do so in an environmentally responsible way. At least most EV battery packs either get a second life or are recycled. Some of these newer plants can recycle 100% of the lithium, cobalt and nickel. EV battery packs are considered expired when they won't hold more than 80% of their rated charge. At that point many are reused as load buffering devices on our power grids. 80% of rated capacity is fine for that need. The EV industry as a whole is well aware of the risks in using these materials in batteries and motors and are researching replacement options.

As for hydrogen fuel. There are at least four electrolysis methods that can be used. Some use electrical power some use only the high temperature waste heat from electric power generation. Burning hydrogen as a fuel in either an ICE or a fuel cell does not produce carbon as stated above. Its a simple H2 + O2 reaction that produces H2O, plain old fashion water.

Wind turbines appear to be at best only about 40% of their name plate capacity rating over their life span. In some cases those idle turbines we see are idle because the power transmission lines nearby do not have enough capacity to transmit all of the power the wind farm can produce. So some equipment must be idled. Now some of those turbines may be down for service work or other reasons as well. If folks were to build a hydrogen production plant in conjunction with even off grid wind farms and/or solar farms very clean hydrogen fuel could be produced. Heck you could even burn the H2 in an ICE based vehicle.

For some folks that bash government tax breaks for the renewable/EV industry I suggest you research how much oil companies and fossil fuel power plants get in tax breaks and other handouts. Don't forget we all had to bail out the big 3 auto makers a few years back. Maybe all government give aways to the energy and auto industries should be zeroed out and let the private sector figure it out.

Wow. A comprehensive and interesting write up. I learned a couple things along the way. My wife and I have both been driving EV’s for over 4 years. We don’t really pay attention to the science. We chose EV’s just from the performance, convenience and drive and forget low maintenance aspect. We have gone through about 3 or 4 jugs of washer fluid in 4 years and I think the wipers are due next year as they are getting streaky. But we rarely pay attention to the important bits that make them go. I opened the hood about a month ago. The inverter was covered in dust so I put on a mask and blew it off with the air gun. Took a damp rag and cleaned it up. Good for another 4 years.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute some really interesting points.

[ThePowells]

Originally Posted by BTFT

While I appreciate your kind Job tips I have done my time working. As a Mechanical/Aerospace engineer for the first half of my career working for among others Boeing, TRW, IBM and yes even once PACCCAR (Where I helped design a fold able bridge to be deployed from a tracked vehicle) then in business for myself in Consulting and Engineering Management Consulting.


I have designed Ground support Equipment for the Space Shuttle, Floors for Boeing Aircraft (every time you walk on one you are walking on something I helped design) and was part of a private launch vehicle project for which I was chiefly responsible for Stage attachment and separation and payload mounting and separation/launch once in low/mid earth orbit....Then I retired at 53. ( I am now 66)

Perhaps I am not, with my humble talents, qualified to have an opinion on ELECTRIC vehicles. But I gave it my best shot....

Maybe I got to see some of your stuff after the landing and during the decking of STS-3 at White Sands.

[DRM901]

According to a NY Times article, Google server farms (what most of you used to post to this forum), caused over 1.5 metric tons of carbon emissions as of 2010. Based on this, I think we would have a greater impact of we quit using the internet.

Do your part to save the planet, shut off the PC/tablet/phone and go sit around a campfire. Toast some bread, make some Smores, and most importantly make some new friends.

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by DRM901

According to a NY Times article, Google server farms (what most of you used to post to this forum), caused over 1.5 metric tons of carbon emissions as of 2010. Based on this, I think we would have a greater impact of we quit using the internet.

Do your part to save the planet, shut off the PC/tablet/phone and go sit around a campfire. Toast some bread, make some Smores, and most importantly make some new friends.

Was there a report on the emissions from the manufacture of lithium batteries? Or Bitcoin mining? Or commercial airliners?

[ThePowells]

Google built a huge server farm in the town where I grew up, and the furniture business was dying. Maybe now they would like to have the stinking plants back now.

[rarebear.nm]

The new Facebook Data Center in New Mexico is being powered 100% by a 100megawatt solar farm.