Go Back   iRV2 Forums > iRV2.com COMMUNITY FORUMS > iRV2.com General Discussion
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-13-2014, 09:31 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
StevieG's Avatar
 
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Milton, NY
Posts: 890
[QUOTE=sirpurrcival;200742 To the original poster, I would simply say this. If you are at all concerned with your ability to navigate through the purchase process on your own, you should take whatever steps you see fit to make the process more understandable and comfortable. That doesn't necessarily mean just any lawyer or even a lawyer at all. For example you might hire an auto broker. This is a person who buys vehicles on the behalf of other persons. They would be familiar with purchase contracts, the processes involved with obtaining clear titles and all the rest. A specialist in vehicle procurement as it were. Probably cheaper than a lawyer to boot.[/QUOTE]

X2!
__________________

__________________
Steve & Beth - Milton, New York
2006 Monaco Knight 38 PDQ
Ready Brute Elite-2016 Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
StevieG is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 04-13-2014, 11:01 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
dons2346's Avatar
 
Country Coach Owners Club
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by wa8yxm View Post
I would recommend at the very least you go to the sales "interview" Wired, (That is wearing a recorder, a common cell phone will do in most cases and most all smart phones can do it too.
So, you come into my office "wired"? Are you going to tell me that you are "wired"?
__________________

__________________
dons2346 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 10:14 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
gemini5362's Avatar
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieG View Post
Sorry to disagree... Being an attorney doesn't automatically make somebody more knowledgable... Especially when it comes to buying an RV...
You are correct it does not automatically make someone more knowledgeable. But when you are talking about contracts that three day bar exam they have to pass usually does indicate they might no more about contracts than the average person off of the street.

I am glad you have this attitude and work very hard to talk others into the same frame of mind. Lawyers make a lot more money from people that sign contracts and then have to go to court to get something fixed versus the people that spend an hour or so to have a contract read first.
__________________
gemini5362 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 10:48 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
CJBROWN's Avatar
 
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Orange County CA
Posts: 915
Unsubscribing...
__________________
Chris & Sherry Brown - 2014 Anza Borrego Weekend Trip Report
2005 Itasca Sunrise 31W - W20 and 8.1
2015 Chevy Colorado 4X4 Toad
CJBROWN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 11:42 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 501
I find it difficult to believe some of the nonsense I have read here! If the dealer is obviously SO bad that you figure you need an attorney to protect your interests, then the obvious intelligent option might be to find a dealer you can trust.

All this stuff about contracts etal . . . ?? When I bought my rig new, I bought it from a reputable dealer:
1. No contract;
2. No deposit;
3. Not even a discussion of price.

I visited the dealer (Sicard RV, Hamilton, ON) on an open house weekend, and found the rig we wanted. Dealer asks if we know what options you want? Nope. So he hands us an option sheet with prices, and sez, give me a call when you know what options you want. So we give him a call a couple days later with our list of options and he sez hold on: Don't tell me, tell Winnebago. I have them on the line on a three way conference call. Tell them what you want.

When I finished placing my order, the dealer sez: Okay that rig has your name on it. Somewhat astonished at the dealer's cavalier attitude, I say: "But we haven't even discussed price yet!!" "No matter" sez the dealer, we can deal with all that sort of stuff when your new rig arrives.

So:
1. No deposit;
2. No contract to sign
3. Just a simple phone call

When the new rig arrives:
1. We agree on price within an hour;
2. I write him a personal cheque for $1xx,xxx;
3. He hands me the keys;
5. We drive off down the road in our new rig!

Can't imagine why anyone would need an attorney for such a simple cash 'n carry transaction. If your dealer is determined to make the transaction more complex and complicated than necessary, then perhaps finding a different dealer might be a good option.

Off to the same dealer within the next month to buy our next new rig.
__________________
Stan Birch
1999 Winnebago Adventurer 32T Ford V-10
Stan.Birch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 05:53 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
StevieG's Avatar
 
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Milton, NY
Posts: 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemini5362 View Post
I am glad you have this attitude and work very hard to talk others into the same frame of mind. Lawyers make a lot more money from people that sign contracts and then have to go to court to get something fixed versus the people that spend an hour or so to have a contract read first.
I agree that everyone should read what they are agreeing to and if they don't understand, ask the dealer to go over it paragraph by paragraph or seek outside advise before signing. In my case, I feel confident enough in my ability to read and understand what a contract says, not to need an attorney. As I stated above, if I don't like what the contracts says I will modify it to meet my comfort level or decline to sign it. All contracts are modifiable, because after all, a contract is an agreement by both parties...

I also feel very strongly that everyone buying a used motorhome should get an independent survey (inspection) done. This would substantially help the buyer know from a technical and repair standpoint, what they are actually getting.
__________________
Steve & Beth - Milton, New York
2006 Monaco Knight 38 PDQ
Ready Brute Elite-2016 Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
StevieG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 11:23 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
gemini5362's Avatar
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan.Birch View Post
I find it difficult to believe some of the nonsense I have read here! If the dealer is obviously SO bad that you figure you need an attorney to protect your interests, then the obvious intelligent option might be to find a dealer you can trust.

All this stuff about contracts etal . . . ?? When I bought my rig new, I bought it from a reputable dealer:
1. No contract;
2. No deposit;
3. Not even a discussion of price.

I visited the dealer (Sicard RV, Hamilton, ON) on an open house weekend, and found the rig we wanted. Dealer asks if we know what options you want? Nope. So he hands us an option sheet with prices, and sez, give me a call when you know what options you want. So we give him a call a couple days later with our list of options and he sez hold on: Don't tell me, tell Winnebago. I have them on the line on a three way conference call. Tell them what you want.

When I finished placing my order, the dealer sez: Okay that rig has your name on it. Somewhat astonished at the dealer's cavalier attitude, I say: "But we haven't even discussed price yet!!" "No matter" sez the dealer, we can deal with all that sort of stuff when your new rig arrives.

So:
1. No deposit;
2. No contract to sign
3. Just a simple phone call

When the new rig arrives:
1. We agree on price within an hour;
2. I write him a personal cheque for $1xx,xxx;
3. He hands me the keys;
5. We drive off down the road in our new rig!

Can't imagine why anyone would need an attorney for such a simple cash 'n carry transaction. If your dealer is determined to make the transaction more complex and complicated than necessary, then perhaps finding a different dealer might be a good option.

Off to the same dealer within the next month to buy our next new rig.
Congratulations on your successful purchase. In a way what you did works very well. You had no contract to be held to, No earnest money to worry about losing. Unfortunately very few deals are made like this. For example. I traded in a fifth wheel that needed some minor body work on a used MH that had a cracked windshield. The body work was 600.00 and I offered the fifth wheel with the body work fixed. The salesman told me that they would fix the body work if I would replace the windshield and that it was going to cost 1000.00 to replace it. We agreed to that and I went home to bring my fifth wheel in the next week to complete the deal and get my MH. While I was at home I called the glass installer and found out that my windshield was going to cost 3000.00 to fix. I do not know the salesman knew that for sure but he was their senior salesman. We called up to cancel the deal and get our deposit back. They renegotiated the prices pretty quick but if I would have had my 5th wheel there when the original deal was made I would have been trying to argue out the extra 2000.00 for the window.
__________________
gemini5362 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 11:44 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
gemini5362's Avatar
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieG View Post
I agree that everyone should read what they are agreeing to and if they don't understand, ask the dealer to go over it paragraph by paragraph or seek outside advise before signing. In my case, I feel confident enough in my ability to read and understand what a contract says, not to need an attorney. As I stated above, if I don't like what the contracts says I will modify it to meet my comfort level or decline to sign it. All contracts are modifiable, because after all, a contract is an agreement by both parties...

I also feel very strongly that everyone buying a used motorhome should get an independent survey (inspection) done. This would substantially help the buyer know from a technical and repair standpoint, what they are actually getting.
And that is sort of the point I am making. You have been reading contracts for several years and understand what they mean. The average person does not know enough to know that they don't understand what the contract says. I am aware that it is in English language. But contracts language is so much different than anything else. Not having a certain phrase of sentence can make a contract that looks perfectly acceptable not legally enforceable. The majority of people do not know what that language needs to be. That is why I advocate a lawyer. Like I said in one of my earlier posts there are a lot of companies like legal zoom that you pay a small monthly fee and can call them to ask questions. They have attorneys you can send your contract to for review before you ask them questions about it.
__________________
gemini5362 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 09:54 AM   #37
Senior Member
 
StevieG's Avatar
 
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Milton, NY
Posts: 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemini5362 View Post
I traded in a fifth wheel that needed some minor body work on a used MH that had a cracked windshield. The body work was 600.00 and I offered the fifth wheel with the body work fixed. The salesman told me that they would fix the body work if I would replace the windshield and that it was going to cost 1000.00 to replace it. We agreed to that and I went home to bring my fifth wheel in the next week to complete the deal and get my MH. While I was at home I called the glass installer and found out that my windshield was going to cost 3000.00 to fix. I do not know the salesman knew that for sure but he was their senior salesman. We called up to cancel the deal and get our deposit back. They renegotiated the prices pretty quick but if I would have had my 5th wheel there when the original deal was made I would have been trying to argue out the extra 2000.00 for the window.
Yours sounds like a great example of how you can get screwed by a dealer or a private seller (intentionally or not) and not realize it until you're home with your new motorhome in your driveway calling glass companies... Nowhere did I see you mention using or paying an attorney to get this situation resolved... you used your common sense and called a glass company before signing on the bottom line... which is what I have been saying... on the other hand... If you don't have that ability... which some people don't... then get a friend, parent, sibling, child, or professional to help in the negotiation process...
__________________
Steve & Beth - Milton, New York
2006 Monaco Knight 38 PDQ
Ready Brute Elite-2016 Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
StevieG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2014, 02:09 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
sirpurrcival's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan.Birch View Post
I find it difficult to believe some of the nonsense I have read here! If the dealer is obviously SO bad that you figure you need an attorney to protect your interests, then the obvious intelligent option might be to find a dealer you can trust.

And the word in bold in so critical. The world is full of stories of how reputable companies, institutions and so on have bilked the public to the tune of billions or is the finacial meltdown of 2008 so far removed that you have forgotten how such reputable institutions like Lehman Brothers Merrill Lynch, AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, HBOS, Royal Bank of Scotland, Bradford & Bingley, Fortis, Hypo and Alliance & Leicester to name a few misconducted themselves to the point of bankruptcy or near bankruptcy requiring billions in bail outs. Closer to home, lets not forget groups like GM and Chrysler who were nearly run into the ground by supposed bright and reputable men who didn't seem to understand or care about how their less than stellar practises could hurt and damage a lot of ordinary folks.. In the light of such examples, how easily is it do you think to spot less than scrupulus RV Saleman? They don't exactly wear signs saying "I'm a Crook". Judging by past history and reputation, it isn't all that hard to find fraud and misrepresentation within the auto sales industry and when you are putting many thousands on the line, it isn't a pointless endeavor to make sure you have covered yourself even with an apparently honest and genuine seller. Even if you are experienced with contracts, it never hurts to have a second pair of eyes look something over because there is always the chance of something missed. Making sure the paper is clear can save you all sorts of headaches later if you do end up in court.
__________________
1999 - National Tropi Cal
sirpurrcival is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2014, 05:47 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
Jack1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 967
I wonder how many of us would participate or watch sports if the games had no rules or referees to ensure that everyone played fairly. In real life however the idea of rules became very unfashionable in the 1980's (deregulation) and the move to get government (the referee) out of business was pretty much universally embraced. As a result, individuals now find themselves in the "Wild West" & feel it necessary to arrive at the RV Dealer armed with a handful of professional advisors and consultants ($$$$) to ensure that they get a fair shake!

Where we live the game still has rules and referees which ensure that everyone plays nice! We have strong consumer protection and ethical business practice laws. RV Dealers/Salespeople are further regulated by the Motor Dealers Act which ensures compliance with these consumer protection laws. If the consumer feels that either a Dealer or salesperson is not playing nice, they do not need to incur the expense of a lawyer or endure the protracted exposure ($$$) to an already contested legal system....rather they can make one call to the Sales Authority (SA) who will launch an investigation. Should the Dealer/Salesperson be found guilty the SA has the ability to level sanctions, fines and/or yank the licence of either the Salesperson the Dealer or both! You cannot be in the business of selling RV's if you don't have a licence....pretty simple.

On the other hand, if you don't like government laws & consumer protection regulation(s) ......lawyer-up and have fun!
__________________
Jack & Maggie
04-Rexhall Roseair (37)
Cummins ISC / Spartan
Jack1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 01:26 AM   #40
Senior Member
 
gemini5362's Avatar
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieG View Post
Yours sounds like a great example of how you can get screwed by a dealer or a private seller (intentionally or not) and not realize it until you're home with your new motorhome in your driveway calling glass companies... Nowhere did I see you mention using or paying an attorney to get this situation resolved... you used your common sense and called a glass company before signing on the bottom line... which is what I have been saying... on the other hand... If you don't have that ability... which some people don't... then get a friend, parent, sibling, child, or professional to help in the negotiation process...
LOL You might want to reread my first post in this thread. I had a very qualified attorney help me with this. My wife is an attorney licensed in two states. She specializes in real estate and contract law. She graduated number one in her class and got the top score on the bar exam when she took it in Arkansas. I work as an advocate for a very large union. I represent the union in contract cases and have been doing that for 10 years. You do not have to have a JD to be an advocate so I am not a lawyer. Using me as an example of how to deal with contract issues without an attorney is probably not a good example unless you are arguing my side of needing an attorney to look at the contract.
__________________
gemini5362 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 09:55 AM   #41
Senior Member
 
StevieG's Avatar
 
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Milton, NY
Posts: 890
[QUOTE=gemini5362;2013268]My wife is an attorney licensed in two states. She specializes in real estate and contract law. She graduated number one in her class and got the top score on the bar exam when she took it in Arkansas. I work as an advocate for a very large union. QUOTE]

Ahhhhhaaaa.... I guess I must have missed that very important point in your first post, but had a feeling there was at least one attorney in the family... I would have known better!!!!
__________________
Steve & Beth - Milton, New York
2006 Monaco Knight 38 PDQ
Ready Brute Elite-2016 Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
StevieG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014, 05:57 AM   #42
Senior Member
 
gemini5362's Avatar
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,074
I am not an attorney. You do not have to be an attorney to advocate cases. Although I have had a lot of hours of education in the last ten years.

This post is slowing down so I will give an example of how much small changes can matter. When I met my wife she lived in one state I lived in another. This was before the unlimited long distance plan for land lines or cell phones. Our phone bills were getting pretty expensive we only saw each other on weekends and we talked all the time when we were apart. We were in her town and saw an advertisement for cingular (AT&T now) they had for a small fee unlimited minutes after 7 pm to 6am and no roaming fees. we signed up for that and when my wife looked over the contract she said it was not clear enough and added two words to one of the sentences. The salesperson called a manager and sent the contract to him and he signed off on it then had her send it to a district manager who signed off on it. The bill should have been 125.00 per month the first month it was 800.00 we called At&T to get it sorted out. They said that was unlimited minutes within the same calling district but I was out of the district. We explained that we had told the sale person that and they had told us it would be fine. The sales person refused to lower the bill. I then asked to speak to a manager and when I got one on the phone we argued and he said we would have to pay it. I paid the 125.00 and disputed the rest. On the way to her house on weekends it was a two hour drive and I would get on the phone and call and talk to customer service. Sometimes I would get told the manager would call me back and they never did. I kept asking for the number for the administrative offices and they would never give it to me. At one point one of the managers offered to let me out of the contract with no penalty for early termination. I refused and told them it was a two year contract and they were going to honor it. After about 6 months of this we were up to 2500.00 in disputed charges. When I called and asked for the administrative offices there must have been a new guy and he gave me the number. I called the number got an operator and told her my story and asked if she could give me someone that could help me
The operator transferred me to a nice lady who said her name was Josie and asked what she could do to help me. The first thing I said was cut 2500.00 off of my bill. She said what in kind of a shocked voice so I told her my story. She asked me if I could fax her the modified contract. I did and after she had it about 30 minutes she called me back. She said that yes I was right and she would have to get her boss to approve the change.
She said she did not have the authority to delete that much of a charge. I asked her if he boss had the authority to do that and she just kind of laughed. She asked me if I knew who I was talking to and I told her just her name. She informed me she was the CEO 's personal assistant. The operator just picked her at random for some reason. The next morning she told me that she had deleted the charge. The computer was not equipped to input my plan so she was going to have to manually delete the overages every month until the end of the contract. She also informed me that they would not be renewing that contract when it expired. By the time the two years were up I probably saved somewhere between 7 and 10,000 dollars on that contract and it was all because my wife added two words to one line. It has been so long ago that I don't remember what it said but it was something I thought at the time was pretty insignificant and she told me she wanted to make it crystal clear what the salesman had agreed to. It does not take much to make a contract more legally binding.

To finish the story my bill was modified for the next two month with no problems. Josie had told me if she got busy and forgot to do it one month to call her. The third month she forgot to. I had gone on the assumption that she was some upper managers assistant but was not the CEO's personal assistant and she had been pulling my leg. When I saw the bill was wrong I went to call her but did not have her number with me. I called customer service and tried to get the number for admin again. The representative would not give it to me so I asked for a manager. I explained to the manager that I had talked to Josie and she told me to call her if my bill was wrong again and asked him for the administrative offices number. He was actually pretty much of a jerk about the whole thing. Told me I just needed to pay my bill as it was. I asked him if he had email capability and when he said he did I gave him Josie's complete name and asked him to send her an email asking her to call me. I also asked for his name so I could tell Josie who I had talked to if I had to wait until I got home and got her number to get in touch with her. He gave me his name and even spelled it to make sure I got it right when I talked to upper management. LIke I said he was pretty much a jerk. Evidently he had sent the email while giving me his name. I had told him thank you and was just getting ready to hang up when he stopped me. He told me that he had gotten a reply from Josie asking him to transfer my call to her if I still had time to talk with her. He asked if I wanted him to do that. I am assuming that Josie might have actually been the CEO persona assistant because the customer service manager suddenly got very nice to me. He transferred my call and thanked me for being patient and it was in a much friendlier tone of voice than before. Josie thanked me for reminding her and she changed that bill and everyone of them until the contract was over. About the time that happened my Girfriends youngest daughter got out of high school so we could get married and she could move to Arkansas we did not want her daughter to have to move schools for her junior and senior years. She moved and then the large phone bills stopped. Just remember two small words was what made the difference. Without them AT&T was just going to tell us that we misunderstood the contract.
__________________

__________________
gemini5362 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
purchase


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do Not Purchase an RV Extended Warranty from This Company! Gadget Man iRV2.com General Discussion 15 04-13-2014 03:29 PM
Used Class A purchase checklist minivanmafia Damon 3 04-13-2014 03:21 PM
Purchase One State - Register Another jigsup Newmar Owner's Forum 16 03-02-2014 01:51 PM
Which to purchase HemiEleanor Class A Motorhome Discussions 6 02-13-2014 02:21 PM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.