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Old 07-19-2016, 10:48 PM   #183
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Getting back to RVs and away from cars.........

Take a look at these two comparisons of the production line at Jayco and that of Newmar. Newmar is a 'little' calmer and done with care.

Jayco:
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:18 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by twogypsies View Post
Getting back to RVs and away from cars.........

Take a look at these two comparisons of the production line at Jayco and that of Newmar. Newmar is a 'little' calmer and done with care.

Jayco:
Thanks for posting those videos. That's a crazy fast pace at Jayco! No wonder why we find construction debris throughout the trailers!
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:51 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by twogypsies View Post
Getting back to RVs and away from cars.........

Take a look at these two comparisons of the production line at Jayco and that of Newmar. Newmar is a 'little' calmer and done with care.

Jayco:


Wow. Jayco looked like chickens running around with their heads cut off. 6 hours start to finish??? No wonder the quality of many rigs out there is sub standard.
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Old 07-20-2016, 05:56 AM   #186
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Those are two products made for completely different markets and probably at different margin levels. If there wasn't a market for affordable tt's, then they wouldn't be making many of those built at high speed I suspect. The consumer drives much of this.

Plus, there is nothing wrong with executing a plan quickly. I saw nobody in the first video wondering what to do next. They knew what their next step was, and they were efficiently working to plan. That's a cookie cutter tt that is built mostly the same way time after time. You get good and fast at doing that. The bothersome things are the less noticable. There is little use of jigs for drilling holes. The holes are being drilled after the frame is painted, which is a corrosion issue. There is little protection for the products including cabinet face frames. And look at who is building each of these. You have older workers, and it would be assumed more experienced in one vid. The other is mostly kids. One is being built factory style, and the other custom style. Both have the potential to turn out high quality.....if using the right methods and having high operational discipline.

A forgotten manufacturing system is 6 sigma. I'm a big believer is checking quality points early and often.
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:07 AM   #187
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....Plus, there is nothing wrong with executing a plan quickly. I saw nobody in the first video wondering what to do next. They knew what their next step was, and they were efficiently working to plan.... .
This is especially true with simpler things like drywall, etc. I used to think that you had to go slow to do it perfect but that's not the case.

So I guess it's safe to assume that if the whole thing takes 7 hours they aren't going to spend that same amount of time making sure everything works properly?
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:30 AM   #188
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FWIW The Jayco build is also sped up. Watch the motion. Having done a bit of short run production I complete agree on the jigs and fixtures comment. It does make a huge difference in accuracy and some in the quality of the holes. That in turn is an issue when the fasteners are installed.
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:37 AM   #189
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Two different products. It would have been better to compare Jayco's Entegra line to the Newmar MH line. Building a light tt has similarities, but I having seen both the Entera and Newmar lines last month and they are both comparable ( fwiw I still felt Newmar workers were more deliberate in checking accuracy but...)
As already said price point has a lot to do with care in construction. Entry level trailers ,shown, don't get the same effort as $400,000 motorhomes.
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:43 AM   #190
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FWIW The Jayco build is also sped up. Watch the motion. Having done a bit of short run production I complete agree on the jigs and fixtures comment. It does make a huge difference in accuracy and some in the quality of the holes. That in turn is an issue when the fasteners are installed.
I enjoyed watching the Jayco build--they used a lot of different film speeds during that short video, some really fast and others just slightly faster. 7 hours doesn't seem like an especially long time to assemble a TT when parts are being built simultaneously at different locations around the plant. I know it only takes a couple hours to assemble a car in an automotive plant, but parts are being manufactured all over the country and are brought on site just in time for assembly. A good example is the frame they started with was built somewhere and brought to that point in the assembly line.
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:52 AM   #191
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There is also very little actual assembly shown in the MH build. Almost all of the Jayco video is assembly of the TT.
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:44 AM   #192
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As already said price point has a lot to do with care in construction. Entry level trailers ,shown, don't get the same effort as $400,000 motorhomes.
First of all, I agree. Second, that thought process is wrong. Very wrong.

The brand name is on the product, be it a fold down camper, or a coach. If a customer buys a trailer from brand x and it is not well built, that customer will not return to upgrade.
Last winter summer I looked at a new Forest River trailer. Let's just say during my current Class A search, you can't drag me inside a coach produced by a Forest River company.

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Plus, there is nothing wrong with executing a plan quickly.
Nothing at all. And like was said, when you repeat a task many times, you become more efficient.

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There is little use of jigs for drilling holes.
28 years in the QC world, and I see this as an opportunity that a solid QC program would resolve. If it is actually an issue. If random placed holes cause a quality issue in the finished product, the bread crumbs would eventually lead back to it.
Improvements such as this eventually lead to increased production efficiency($$), reduced warranty claims ($$), higher customer satisfaction ($$), and a positive reputation for the brand ($$).

I have owned two Jayco products, neither a coach. Both were well built and never, let me repeat, NEVER saw the dealer after they left the lot. No punch lists, no minor tweaks performed on my part. If they built both of those trailers at break-neck speed; more power to them. They did a bang up job.

Or, as most would suggest, I'm just lucky.
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:45 PM   #193
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"when you repeat a task many times, you become more efficient" or too fast and sloppy.

The Newmar video didn't show the whole build and it also takes days to complete, not hours.

Newmar also sells entry level not just half a million dollar ones. All levels are built on the same line with the same care. There could be a entry built at the very same time as a million dollar one. They are both built by the same workers. If anything later down the line is found that isn't up to par the unit is returned to the same workers to correct it.

I can assure you that the whole build process is done slow...just like the video. The unit goes through many testing stations, including water.

A big difference is that Newmar is not mass-produced. They are built according to the orders received from the dealers. A hundred of them aren't made and sent to a dealer like you might see setting on some Jayco lots.

Nearly everyone can afford a high quality RV if they wouldn't have to think they needed to buy a new one. There's absolutely nothing wrong with buying used and you save a LOT of money doing so. Many people want all the glitz, two bathrooms, four slides, washer and dryer, etc. If you can lower your wants a little you can get a high quality RV. Some people state "find the floorplan you want first". That should be the last thing. The first thing is to find a quality RV. A floorplan does no good if the RV falls apart.

Many times if you buy older you can have the inside redone for a fraction of the cost of a new one. You can also have it painted. There are some beautiful 20-year-old RVs out there.

Can you tell we're very partial to Newmar? Before we bought whenever we'd see one in a campground or parking lot, we'd go over and talk to the owner. Over a two-year period of looking we honestly never talked to an owner who didn't praise it. That sold us.
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Old 08-22-2016, 04:25 PM   #194
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I just wanted to jump in with a small comment.

It is not a valid assumption that RV's would cost customers more if they were made with better quality.

1. Let's assume that most of the issues are going to be encountered by the new owner. Component failures are inevitable, but issues relating to construction, system testing, durability etc are bound to be found by the owner.

2. The manufacturers largely bear these costs anyway, because they are paying dealerships and service centers to repair them, supply the parts, spend time on the phone diagnosing issues etc. There is overhead associated with warranty repairs.

3. Large portions of those costs could be avoided by spending more time on assembly to get it right, and more time in QC to catch errors. It is cheaper to fix many issues at the point of assembly rather than in the field.

So let's assume the average cost of field warranty repairs for each motorhome is $10,000. You could probably take 50-75% of that money and spend it in the manufacturing process. It would not cost the customer an extra cent, because you're obviating warranty costs. it would be more efficiently spent at the factory. And the customers would be happy, which would, over the long run, translate into more sales.

But manufacturers don't have the balls to risk spending more on the build, because to much of the companies are run by "financial engineers" who look at soloed manufacturing costs rather than entire cost over the warranty life of the coach.

This is very typical of modern American companies to consider costs in each silo, not as part of an end to end process. A great example of this type of attitude are our major airlines.
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Old 08-23-2016, 07:04 AM   #195
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It takes two years to fix problems with new RVs

You are right in that manufacturers have factored in repair costs for warranties and that they cover 100 percent of the costs during the first year.

However, it generally takes two years to work all the bugs out of the process, and RV owners are on the hook for 100 percent of repairs in Year 2.

Combined with the four to six week wait times for appointments at RV dealerships in the owner's first year, the owner will only be able to use his RV maybe four times between appointments in most parts of the country.

Owners are paying significant amounts of money -- let's not forget lost time to have it in the shop -- because manufacturers rush the RVs down the line and out the door.
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Old 08-23-2016, 07:05 AM   #196
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But manufacturers don't have the balls to risk spending more on the build, because to much of the companies are run by "financial engineers" who look at soloed manufacturing costs rather than entire cost over the warranty life of the coach.

This is very typical of modern American companies to consider costs in each silo, not as part of an end to end process. A great example of this type of attitude are our major airlines.
That's probably true. RV manufactures are enjoying incredible profits and are building more units probably than ever before. The economy is good and the baby boomers are enjoying the fruits of their labors by buying RV's.

It's my guess that very few new motor home buyers join forums like this or really research the manufactures or the industry in general. They buy with the expectation that the unit will preform like a new car.

Because of this the motor home builders compete largely on price and bling. If the bean counters at the builders can find a cheaper way to build then they get the go ahead. The new motor home buyer finds out quickly after purchase that his new motor home is not built to the same standards as a car nor is warranty work done in the same manner as a new car.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of Newmar's are purchased by first time motor home buyers. My guess is it's low. Experienced RVers or those that have researched the industry know the difference.
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