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Old 07-08-2016, 08:43 AM   #71
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What really amuses me is folks trying to equate building 3 a day, maybe all different, from the the techniques and costs of building 30 or more an hour.

FWIW I will add that there is quite a bit of difference in the quality of work done when the job pays $9/hr and the pressure is to get it done and $19/hr and the pressure is to get it right.
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Old 07-08-2016, 08:52 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Gary RVRoamer View Post
Sadly, styling and advertising hype apparently sells more RV than quality ever will.
Those companies that were considered manufacturers of quality units had to charge so much more for their quality that they became non-competitive. Most folks did not want to pay the much higher costs. (Example: $130,000 for a 33' 5th wheel vs $45,000 -$65,000). They also only produced about 4 units per month compared to the mucho more produced by the other makers. So, end result is they went belly up after 40+ years in the business after being bought out by mass producers.
Quality does cost. How many would be in the market for such a unit? I suspect that MotorHomes would be an even worse example.

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Old 07-08-2016, 09:03 AM   #73
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Is This The Needed Wakeup Call For The Motorhome Industry?

I have read the blogs and all the comments here.
Very interesting stuff with some very good points made on all sides.
It does seem we all want Nordstrom quality at Wal mart pricing.
Read any comparison thread on this forum and count how many times someone says "this rv is way cheaper and I'll spend all the $ i save on other things".
As a whole, we as purchasers have not supported the building of a quality coach in numbers that would encourage a manufacturer to build them. If there was truly a market there, they would build them. That's how it works.
They wouldn't be building $100,000 Corvettes if enough folks didn't understand the value of that car compared to a $10,000 Kia.

So I have to ask is this the same with luxury yachts?
Seems like a very similar market, many systems, takes a beating, do they keep on ticking?
It seems Ocean Alexander has separated itself from the Bayliner market.

Just my thoughts
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Old 07-09-2016, 08:08 AM   #74
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I know you guys closed the other threat started on this subject, but in fact, he linked to the SECOND article in this writers series.

RV Death Spiral: Manufacturers in race to the bottom | RV Daily Report
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Old 07-09-2016, 08:59 AM   #75
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I know you guys closed the other threat started on this subject, but in fact, he linked to the SECOND article in this writers series.

RV Death Spiral: Manufacturers in race to the bottom | RV Daily Report
In post #67 the OP of this thread also linked to part 2 of the original article.
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Old 07-09-2016, 09:09 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by BFlinn181 View Post
In post #67 the OP of this thread also linked to part 2 of the original article.
Excellent. I found the second article very compelling.
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Old 07-09-2016, 09:11 AM   #77
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also, the podcast linked in article number 2 was a hoot!
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Old 07-09-2016, 09:49 AM   #78
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The commentary by the consumer / lemon law attorney out of Michigan? It's pretty eye opening and perhaps a must-listen if you've never owned an RV before. The fact that your $250k motorhome can burn to the ground a few miles from the dealer and you just signed documents indicating that you won't hold the dealer liable.

There are quite a few people indicating that consumers need to do their own due diligence. And that's fine, but many first time RV buyers have never experienced what potentially can be very expensive learning experience - it's very difficult to self-educate out of it... I think these buyers are a large reason why the industry as a whole doesn't have to change.
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Old 07-09-2016, 09:59 AM   #79
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I see evidence of shortcuts and less than perfect workmanship in my 11 year old Bounder all the time, but I mostly marvel at how they did it at all. In 2005 my Bounder sold for about $100k. When you consider the cost of the chassis, components, tooling and design of some weird one-off parts, labor to build it and dealer mark-up, it's a miracle in my view.

They are not making all that many of any one model to spread their production engineering across, or even to fine tune the process. There's plenty of room for improvement, to be sure, but give all of these obstacles, I'm sure I would not be able to afford the improved product.

This IS the crux of the issue. You nailed it!
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:09 AM   #80
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The commentary by the consumer / lemon law attorney out of Michigan? It's pretty eye opening and perhaps a must-listen if you've never owned an RV before. The fact that your $250k motorhome can burn to the ground a few miles from the dealer and you just signed documents indicating that you won't hold the dealer liable.

There are quite a few people indicating that consumers need to do their own due diligence. And that's fine, but many first time RV buyers have never experienced what potentially can be very expensive learning experience - it's very difficult to self-educate out of it... I think these buyers are a large reason why the industry as a whole doesn't have to change.
agreed. It's unfortunate that no new laws have been placed on the books protecting the consumer on RV purchases. That podcast was a real eye opener for me.. and I'm several years experienced...
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Old 07-09-2016, 11:20 AM   #81
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I agree with an earlier comment that we can talk about quality all we want but most consumers won't pay for it. There ARE high quality manufacturers today but most are boutique brands selling only a couple of hundred units per year.

Think about the price points that consumers are demanding. Most class C's for a Chevy Tahoe price? Travel trailers for less than the price of a subcompact car?

When the lower cost brands start losing customers over quality to the high cost boutique brands, things will change. We've seen it before with the domestic auto industry in the early 80's.

It's no different than homebuyers wanting to spend $200,000 on a new house but demanding granite counters, whirlpool tubs and home theaters. Something has to give somewhere.

Vote with your money by not giving it to them, not by griping afterwards.
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Old 07-09-2016, 04:59 PM   #82
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It's no different than homebuyers wanting to spend $200,000 on a new house but demanding granite counters, whirlpool tubs and home theaters. Something has to give somewhere.
Agreed. But the difference is that new homes include a warranty and if the homebuilder doesn't repair a defect within a reasonable period, the homeowner has recourse.

The industry has made it where a RV or motorhome buyer has little if any recourse.

Simply stated, this needs to change.
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Old 07-09-2016, 05:16 PM   #83
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Agreed. But the difference is that new homes include a warranty and if the homebuilder doesn't repair a defect within a reasonable period, the homeowner has recourse.

The industry has made it where a RV or motorhome buyer has little if any recourse.

Simply stated, this needs to change.
The RV industry is 100 years strong. It will be here for the next 100 years.

There are manufacturers out there that don't mass produce. They take care in what they build.

We bought two new ones during our 16 years of full-timing and didn't have a major issue with either of them. They were very well-built and finished. Also, we had a few minor warranty issues and easily got service away from our selling dealer. As full-timers, we traveled, and certainly weren't going to return to where we bought it. We called beforehand to a place along our travel route; made an appt; they ordered any part, if needed. We arrived and they fixed it in one day. We stayed overnight with electric and went on the next day.
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Old 07-09-2016, 05:51 PM   #84
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Agreed. But the difference is that new homes include a warranty and if the homebuilder doesn't repair a defect within a reasonable period, the homeowner has recourse.

The industry has made it where a RV or motorhome buyer has little if any recourse.

Simply stated, this needs to change.
But again this goes to the cost issue. Whether we want the manufacturer to include it in the purchase price or want to purchase the warranty from a third party, the cost of the warranty will be included in the sale price, a sale price that most consumers want to see fall, not rise.
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