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Old 01-13-2009, 12:22 PM   #197
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I don't understand your comment about,"Many speed limits not are legal in themselves"
State law often defines the guidelines by which traffic controls can be set. A common one for speed limits is to comply with the MUTCD, which is necessary for the state to qualify for federal highway funds. See for instance the story about a Washoe County Nevada Court Decision. Also consider the situation in California that comes up now and then about the 5 following - going in excess of the speed limit is not an excuse for obstructing traffic.

It is things like this that make it highly likely that a person who knows the system can avoid being found guilty of a speeding ticket if they play the system. properly.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:00 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally posted by BryanL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However some parts of this thread do push the boundaries and seem to be leaning towards endorsing, justifying and inciting the breaking of the speed laws and replaces abiding by the law with an anything goes approach.
I think one needs to be very careful with this sort of perception and to be careful that a difference of opinion is not elevated to something it is not. It is usually not safe to ride on a high horse.

Even the judicial system does not always know just what the law is. That is why our society claims it doesn't consider people guilty until a process has been completed to prove them so. An LEO writing a ticket is not the entire process, it is just one person expressing his opinion.

And then there are philosophical differences about the proper role of government and the rights of individuals among other things.

There is another problem in that many speed limits are not legal in themselves. What path do you follow there? How do you know? What are the consequences?

Also of concern is the question about when the law collides with safety. If someone advocates safety as a priority over the law, are they "endorsing, justifying and inciting the breaking" the law and the user agreement here?

The Az DOT has a good page on making sense of speed limits. Note the use of the term "realistic speed limits" and the sections about what realistic and unrealistic speed limits do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry you feel that way, it makes me sad to hear you say that. Lowliness of mind and humility is what I am talking about, not placing ones own interests above the well being of those around you even if they are on a their own high horse thinking that their own abilities and driving skills are so superior that speed limits and laws have to be adjusted around them and that their wants are above everyone elses right to a safe environment.

In most states where I have driven the law provides for safety and allows you to put on your emergency flashers and drive below the minimum speed until you can get you vehicle safely up to the minimum speed or exit the roadway to seek an alternative route that is within the capabilities of you vehicle. There is most always a lawful way to be safe.

Where I live they are not raising but lowering speed limits where there are abuses, putting in speed bumps and traffic calming areas to help everyone to see the need to slow down and drive more safely.

Too bad you feel that way I can't really put into words how badly it makes me feel to read your words.
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Old 01-14-2009, 09:44 AM   #199
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Where I live they are not raising but lowering speed limits where there are abuses, putting in speed bumps and traffic calming areas to help everyone to see the need to slow down and drive more safely.
The fundamental assumption is asserted to be that most folks have good judgment and good common sense and know how to drive safely. The validity of this assumption is measured, for example, in insurance rates.

The 'high horse' refers to those who think they know better than others and therefore show that they feel that this basic assumption is invalid. It is the approach that leads towards trying to control the behavior of other people by putting up arbitrary speed limits or building roads and controls intended to impede and obstruct traffic rather than trust drivers.

It is indeed true that there are exceptions and some drivers at times do not exercise proper judgment. It is always a social struggle to figure out how to deal with those exceptions without putting an undue burden on everyone. That struggle is not helped when some think they know more than others and offer assertions such as "to help everyone to see the need to slow down and drive more safely" - this is especially harmful because it presumes an issue at odds with reality. That means the strident view is being presented with a lack of integrity and that never bodes well.

Traffic cameras and tickets contains a link to, and a summary of, an article of relevance to this discussion. Note that exceeding posted speed is not considered decisive evidence and what that means about LEO judgments among other things. Several other points clarify the misdirected goals of the enforcement effort as well as the individual rights implications.

We all need to be tolerant of each other and to have some level of trust in each other. IMHO, that is the issue here in that the title of this thread says "no we don't" and I wonder if that is really the right way to go.
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Old 01-15-2009, 02:20 AM   #200
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Originally posted by BryanL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Where I live they are not raising but lowering speed limits where there are abuses, putting in speed bumps and traffic calming areas to help everyone to see the need to slow down and drive more safely.
The fundamental assumption is asserted to be that most folks have good judgment and good common sense and know how to drive safely. The validity of this assumption is measured, for example, in insurance rates.

The 'high horse' refers to those who think they know better than others and therefore show that they feel that this basic assumption is invalid. It is the approach that leads towards trying to control the behavior of other people by putting up arbitrary speed limits or building roads and controls intended to impede and obstruct traffic rather than trust drivers.

It is indeed true that there are exceptions and some drivers at times do not exercise proper judgment. It is always a social struggle to figure out how to deal with those exceptions without putting an undue burden on everyone. That struggle is not helped when some think they know more than others and offer assertions such as "to help everyone to see the need to slow down and drive more safely" - this is especially harmful because it presumes an issue at odds with reality. That means the strident view is being presented with a lack of integrity and that never bodes well.

Traffic cameras and tickets contains a link to, and a summary of, an article of relevance to this discussion. Note that exceeding posted speed is not considered decisive evidence and what that means about LEO judgments among other things. Several other points clarify the misdirected goals of the enforcement effort as well as the individual rights implications.

We all need to be tolerant of each other and to have some level of trust in each other. IMHO, that is the issue here in that the title of this thread says "no we don't" and I wonder if that is really the right way to go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The insurance rates show that many drivers are insane, not that people know how to drive safely and actually use that knowledge consistently. Where I live they ask you where you work, how many miles it takes to get there and depending on the location your insurance rates can be tripled because of the other drivers lack of common sense. The insurance rates would seem to show the invalidity of your assumption instead of the validity.

Anarchy is not a good thing and although some use crafty legalease to manipulate and beat the system I have not seen where this really leads to a good result.

We all know that there are leaders and followers and all it takes is few exceptions on the road and then the many (most) will follow suite. Yes there are the cases where two nuts are driving 200MPH and weaving about that people will see are too extreme and don't follow but these are not what I am talking about but rather those pushing things up 5 mph this week and 10 the next then before you know it things are out of hand. This I can see in my daily commute where the majority of people we are to assume are good and reasonable are driving 60+ mph in a 45 zone which is a school bus route and while the buses are running.

These type of philosophies that tear down the black and white guidlines of what is right and what is wrong are leading to a beakdown in our society that goes beyound just driving on the roadways.

If you put up a sign that says drive as you like, no speed limits or traffic laws in force, do you truely believe that road will be a safe one to travel on? Look at the last time there was a major blackout in a city with a large population. What happened when "decent people" thought there would be no chance of being censored for their actions? You could not trust anybody due the the widespread looting and lawlessness. The people being caught were not hardend criminals with prior histories but supposidly solid, decent, trustworthy citizens. Do you really believe that people in general will behave any differently when behind the wheel if left to their own personal likes without real restraints.

I will stick with observing the posted speed limits, cooperating with law enforcement and not encouraging anyone to do otherwise. No anarchy, no grey area envelope pushing, no leagle wrangling or manipulating just playing it safe.

If encouraging everyone to drive no faster than the posted speed limits is being on a high horse then so be it. I invite everyone to join me as there is room enough up here for everybody.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:15 AM   #201
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:21 AM   #202
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Going back to the original topic of this thread:

For laws to be obeyed by the general populace, they have to meet a standard of reasonableness - for instance, how about a law saying you can only inhale 3 times per minute? Having lived through the days when the national 55 MPH speed limit was first initiated, I know for a fact that it was generally disregarded. Why? Because the law was not imposed to improve safety, but rather to impose a value judgement on the populace - that their money was more valuable to them than their time. If an Interstate highway was deemed safe at 70 MPH in an automobile on Tuesday, then it's hard to make people believe it's unsafe at 70 MPH on Wednesday when a 55 MPH speed limit takes effect. The national 55 MPH speed limit only served to fill the coffers of CB radio manufacturers, radar detector manufacturers and government entities who would benefit from the traffic fines.

Now, if someone wants to drive 50-55 MPH in their RV in Texas where 70 MPH is the legal speed limit for an RV on most of the rural Interstates, that's certainly their choice, just as it is mine to drive 62-63 MPH when towing our RV. However, to try to impose their choice on everyone (i.e., because I drive 50-55 MPH, everyone should drive 50-55 MPH) is basically a non-starter.

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Old 01-15-2009, 06:12 AM   #203
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Now, if someone wants to drive 50-55 MPH in their RV in Texas where 70 MPH is the legal speed limit for an RV on most of the rural Interstates, that's certainly their choice, just as it is mine to drive 62-63 MPH when towing our RV. However, to try to impose their choice on everyone (i.e., because I drive 50-55 MPH, everyone should drive 50-55 MPH) is basically a non-starter.
Rusty, I understand your point. But the reverse is also true. As one who tends to drive at less than the speed limit, especially in the RV, I can tell you that the general populance on the roads does not respect my right to do that. I'm not trying to impose my will upon anyone else but apparently that is what they believe. I cannot drive anywhere that I don't run into multiple people trying to push me down the road. In three lanes, with me in the right most lane, I'm often tailgated and have to move to one of the open lanes to my left to let the idiot behind me pass. I've had very windy cross-wind days, when I was paying every ounce of attention to my driving, just to keep at the rate of speed that I was making when I had people passing me with their horns and the 1-finger salute. IMHO, the faster the speed limit, the more people believe that it is their right to exceed it by at least 10-15mph and try to push everyone else on the road to do the same. On interstates, I typically set the cruise in the same range as you do - 62-63mph. I haven't found the driving public in general to be very tolerant of my choice. One of the reasons that I prefer the interstates is that most drivers on the two lanes seem to want to drive the same way, pushing the limits. Very few of them have any concept of how to pass another car on those roads, let alone a nearly 55 foot RV rig so if I'm doing less than 10mph over the posted limit, I become an impediment to travel and am always looking for an opportunity to turnout or get off to let those behind me pass. I don't mind doing that and understand my responsibility to try. I just find that most Texas two lane roads are not very well engineered to provide those spaces for me very often. Perhaps a lower speed limit isn't the answer but there doesn't seem to be a lot of alternatives.
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Old 01-15-2009, 06:18 AM   #204
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Sorry, but I don't believe the speed limit for the populace at large should be determined by the slowest vehicle on the road. Any number of roads in Texas have the truck speed limit set lower than the automobile speed limit. For example, in far West Texas on I-10 and I-20, the daytime speed limit for cars is 80 MPH and trucks is 70 MPH. I'll still stick to the right lane at 62-63 MPH when we go through there with the RV and let the traffic sail by on the left. It's really not all about me....

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Old 01-15-2009, 06:52 AM   #205
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I think the 2 tier speed limit on a 2 lane (1 each way)road is asinine and stupid (such as Ca). It's been my experience that the trucks are driving the car speeds and/or the cars are making stupid and dangerous passes. It's bad enough to do that on multi lane roads.
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Old 01-15-2009, 07:00 AM   #206
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Originally posted by CD:
I think the 2 tier speed limit on a 2 lane (1 each way)road is asinine and stupid (such as Ca).
Cliff,

I agree. That's why Texas, a few years back, raised the truck speed limit to 70 MPH on the interstates where the automobile speed limit was 70 MPH. Unfortunately, there are still some Farm-to-Market and other secondary roads where there are 70 MPH automobile/60 MPH truck split speed limits.

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Old 01-15-2009, 09:47 AM   #207
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Rusty, I wasn't suggesting that the speed limit be set by the slowest vehicle on the road. In fact, I'd prefer that it not be. The problem that I was trying to point out is that the higher the speed limit, the faster that those who just have to exceed it by some margin will drive. There is no way that I can hold 65mph in the RV on some of the two lane roads where that is the posted limit. So those that feel compelled to drive 75mph on those roads can come upon me as a 15 to 20mph impediment to their wishes. Heading for Beaver's Bend SP in OK, I was passed by an empty logging truck, doing at least 80mph. I got a blast of his air horn as a communication of his ire. The wind was trying to blow me off the road at the time.
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Old 01-15-2009, 09:59 AM   #208
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Charlie,

Yep, sometimes the rest of the world is going to see our RVs as rolling roadblocks. All I can do is be as considerate as possible, stay to the right on a multi-lane road and let them get around at the earliest opportunity on a 2 lane road. If they still have a problem with me, I guess I don't know what more I can do.

As far as logging trucks go, I don't believe it would matter what the speed limit is since those guys tend to drive them flat out regardless of anything. One almost took Sandy out on US59 in the East Texas piney woods - he was merging onto the highway and didn't care a bit that Sandy happened to be in the right lane and couldn't move over because of traffic in the left lane.

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Old 01-15-2009, 10:15 AM   #209
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All I can do is be as considerate as possible, stay to the right on a multi-lane road and let them get around at the earliest opportunity on a 2 lane road. If they still have a problem with me, I guess I don't know what more I can do.
Yep, that is exactly what I already do. I guess that I'm trying to say that the posted speed limit may actually have an influence over some of those actions. At 65pmh, some don't seem to have problems with 75mph. If that limit were set to 55mph, I wonder if those same drivers would try to drive 75mph. We all know that the fines get worse the further you are from the posted limit. I do agree that the logging trucks probably won't pay any attention, no matter what the signs say. That is one of the travesties in our current law enforcement approach. It is my impression (wrong though it may be) that some or even many of the commercial guys get a "by" on the same infraction that would get me a citation.
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:57 PM   #210
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Rusty, I understand your point. But the reverse is also true. As one who tends to drive at less than the speed limit, especially in the RV, I can tell you that the general populance on the roads does not respect my right to do that. I'm not trying to impose my will upon anyone else but apparently that is what they believe. I cannot drive anywhere that I don't run into multiple people trying to push me down the road. In three lanes, with me in the right most lane, I'm often tailgated and have to move to one of the open lanes to my left to let the idiot behind me pass. I've had very windy cross-wind days, when I was paying every ounce of attention to my driving, just to keep at the rate of speed that I was making when I had people passing me with their horns and the 1-finger salute. IMHO, the faster the speed limit, the more people believe that it is their right to exceed it by at least 10-15mph and try to push everyone else on the road to do the same. On interstates, I typically set the cruise in the same range as you do - 62-63mph. I haven't found the driving public in general to be very tolerant of my choice. One of the reasons that I prefer the interstates is that most drivers on the two lanes seem to want to drive the same way, pushing the limits. Very few of them have any concept of how to pass another car on those roads, let alone a nearly 55 foot RV rig so if I'm doing less than 10mph over the posted limit, I become an impediment to travel and am always looking for an opportunity to turnout or get off to let those behind me pass. I don't mind doing that and understand my responsibility to try. I just find that most Texas two lane roads are not very well engineered to provide those spaces for me very often. Perhaps a lower speed limit isn't the answer but there doesn't seem to be a lot of alternatives.[/QUOTE]

If you have that many issues with other drivers then I suspect your causing bottlenecks. This, in turn can be hazardous to you and others. Obviously you have the right to drive at the slower pace, but if your so uncomfortable traveling at a slightly higher speed. Its reasonable to assume it may be advantages to acquire a smaller unit, where you feel more comfortable traveling with the flow of traffic.

Unfortunately, as with many, especially very senior individuals, they become unsafe to remain on the highways and or retain their license to drive. Its something a person must adjust too and give up.

I've followed many, especially to Florida, that shouldn't be allow to tow a vehicle. I hope Law Enforcement would take action against these driver. I feel and seen where there more of a hazard to other drivers than those who operate in a reckless manner.
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