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Old 11-05-2014, 02:35 PM   #29
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Wep, the OP. Wonder what he's thinking.
Rusty, I completely disagree with the "just show me the difference approach". However, be honest, the auto and RV sales industry have earned their reputation. I respect that we all are just trying to make a living and I've never been mean to the person who's only choice for a job was telesales. But the sales model in this industry is intimidating and dreaded by the average Joe. I've been through the process many, many times over the years, as have most here. Buyer receives a highball offer and seller counters. The deal is sent back to the Big Dog for scrutinization and back and forth we go. Sometimes the Big Dog is on the floor in a raised box. Who relishes this experience? The model exists because it produces the most profit, period. The one price models have failed and last time I was at Carmax, it was a hybrid model. But I don't bash the sales people. I get it. They are working to support themselves. But I detest the experience. This creates some of the disdain. Furthermore, of all of the industries and businesses I've needed to work with as part life, clearly, those in the auto and RV industry are disproportionately of lessor professional skills. I've met many that I wonder how they made it in. It's as if the dealership only cares that a unit gets moved. Makes no sense, but that's my experience. I've met more than a few that reeked of last night's booze.
What surprised me the most was that after visiting a dozen or so MH dealerships over the years, the professionalism and quality was generally the same. If I'm expecting to buy a $100,000 plus unit, I expect a pro every time.. Not even close.
I've very rarely met a financial broker, real estate agent (I've sold and bought 10 homes so I've met a few), or even a insurance agent that wasn't at least professional and knowledgeable.

As for the OP, he needs to do some homework. There is no easy one size fits all answer to getting his best deal. Like cars, some rvs will demand more towards the list price while others will fall further off it..
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:53 PM   #30
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Rusty, I do find it strange that the folks you make the most on are the happiest. They love their new vehicle and the dealership. We love them and in return its not a big deal and we are happy to go the extra mile or throw things in. We will help them out in service too. The ones that nickel and dime you to death are the ones least happy. Although you are just as cordial and accommodating, its never enough. You live with them, they expect things thrown in or free. Three years from now they hit you up for an oil change or expect their transmission fixed at no charge when its 6 months out of warranty but are arrogant and disrespectful. Guess what? I make a phone call to the factory for the first guys transmission and get it covered under good will. I guess its human nature. There are happy people and miserable people. Maybe its true, you get what you pay for. I will always pay more for good service.
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Old 11-06-2014, 12:04 AM   #31
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Here is some advise I received on this forum from one of its members who obviously had no idea what I do for a living. Next time your in a dealership trying to make a purchase and wonder why your salesman is maybe "off" a bit that day......he might have just finished working with this Genius. Here's what he sent me:

There are two big rules as follows to always keep in mind as potential.

1) RV salesmen are greasy teethed liars. If their mouth is open, they are lying to you or at the very least, trying to influence your buying behavior in their favor.

2) Mistake number 1 is the first time you open your mouth. Don't do it. Keep your mouth closed 100% of the time. There is no part of your life that is any business of the RV salesman.

The following items are NONE of their business!

1) Which model you like more than another.
2) Your plans for traveling and the things you are going to do in your rv.
3) how much money you make.
4) what you do or did for a living.
5) how many kids you have
6) how you intend to pay for it.
7) anything else!
8) if you plan to full time.
9) if you want to take the grandkids out
10) if you have grandkids at all.
11) if you do or do not have a trade.
12) How soon you plan to buy.
13) whether or not you like or DO NOT like anything about the furniture, or kitchen, or bedroom.
14) If you have birds or not.
15) If you are married or not.
16) Anything else.
17) Which brand you like more than another.
18) Anything else.
19) Whether I want DP, Gas, A or C.

Here's my what my wife and I do.

When we walk on a lot, we already know what they have and I already know what I want to look at. I already know the NADA value, I already know everything about it. But I act like I don't. I act as if this is the first time I've ever even seen an rv.

I refuse to sit down in anyone's "office" first (if you could call a glass partition an office.) I'm not letting the RV salesman know why I'm there or exactly what I want to see, and we are not answering one, single dam question.

The questions start of innocuous enough, but they are all leading.

So my wife and I answer every question with a question. I tell the guy I would like to see some diesel RV's, and then I immediately just start walking out there. I walk up beside one, knowing full well what it is, and ask - "whats this?" thumb point towards bus.. they will reply with something like.. "this is a tiffin" or some other really vague answer "well lets look inside" i say and in we go.

Sometime you have to force them by saying "I'm not sure what I want, that's why I'm here... show me something, anything"

While you're in there, and looking around, here come the questions from Mr. RV Salesman. "when're you thinking about buying?"

And you say, "What was your name again?"

"Frank" he says.

You turn back to looking around inside - no further conversation. It's awkward, but who cares.

So he'll try to fill the empty space and say something like "Do you have a budget?"

And you say "Frank, what's your last name?"

he'll stutter and say whatever, "Roberts"

Shut your mouth and keep looking. If you are ready to move on to the next bus, just walk out... he'll follow you like a puppy.

Into the next unit (and maybe this is the one you really came to see, but you hold your excitement!!" )

He'll say "What do you for a living?"

And you say "Are you married Frank?"

He'll gladly tell you about his wife and how long he's been married, and you stay quiet and keep looking.

you will be amazed at how he won't stay quiet! He will try to fill the space by saying stupid stuff like.. and this one has a dishwasher, and it has a xyz, and the bath in the back is nice... you nod, yea yea uh huh uh huh..

next bus, move right along to the next one..

He'll say, "how do you plan to use your rv?"

You say "Have any kids Frank?" and again, silence from you.. he'll show you pics of his kids and grandkids, you nod and smile.

Once you've seen everything you want to see... to know what you like and don't like... LEAVE. Take his card, tell him you have to meet your old auntie for lunch and you're late so you must leave... grab another of his cards, and write your number on the back and give it to him. tell him "if he gets anything new in to just call you and you'll think about what you've seen today and thanks for very much." Also make a point to say that you "like" him. "Thanks for your time today frank, I really like you." ( this 'like' tactic is a way to make him like you, whether you really like him or not )

Now at this point, frank knows NOTHING about you to use against you. He can't even say something like "You really need to buy this coach cause another couple came and looked at it today and they are serious"....

Which is the typical greasy teethed crap he WILL say IF he knows which unit you really want. But you, being smart, gave him NO IDEA of what you want, like, have to spend, nothing! He's completely disarmed!

Now the next thing you need to think about is this.

There are over 10000 RV's for sale right now. They are every where, all over the US, dealers lots are full of them, absolutely chock full of them. So really, you have the power, not the dealer.

Once you settle on the rv you like, investigate the way the dealer orders them, VS the way you could have it ordered. I've noticed dealers make bad choices when ordering new rv's. They always pick the wrong stuff (and the cheapest stuff).

If it's a used rv we're talking about, know for a fact that the dealer STOLE it from someone... now it's your mission to steal it from them.

NEW RV - Take MSRP, take off 30%. That's what you'll want to pay.

If it's a used rv, take NADA LOW RETAIL, and take 25% off that. That's what you want to pay.

Have your money lined up and ready, finance or whatever. Go through bank of the west or essex and be preapproved, but don't tell the dealer! You'll save that as your final blow.

If you have any other "unit related " questions, like what size a/c does it have... handle that over the phone and not in person, and in individual phone calls - one question per call (this is part of the "wearing them out process").

When it comes time to "make your move" wear the salesman out first. Do the opposite of exactly what they want to do you. Start by peppering him with phone calls full of one liner questions about multiple units. Call, ask about unit B.. does it have blah blah blah. Yes? thanks ill call you back. repeat this for a while, maybe even over several days or weeks.

Then, Go in the middle of the hottest day, and make that guy take you to every rv on the lot.. again... stay shut up, be weird and awkward. But let him spend hours of his time on you, and keep on him with the personal questions.. it will wear him down, this is normally where they like to have you.

When you arrive at the bus you want... ask how much it is, because up until now, you've NEVER talked dollars.

Then go for the jugular. Pounce like a tiger and say something like.. "What would you say if I offered you $XYZ?" Lower than your desired amount.

he might do some back and forthing with the manager, but arrive at your number, that's what you'll pay, and you'll do it "right now" otherwise I gotta keep moving.

Then you dangle the finance in their face. Tell them "you'll let them have the financing" if they can meet your price. Tell him you "like" him again, and you appreciate all the time and sweat he's spent with you, and you'd hate to see that effort wasted over a couple of dollars, and don't forget, "the commission will help your 5 kids and 90 grandchildren you told me about Frank".

be prepared to leave if they get uppety on you. they won't let you get far. Don't listen to another word of greasy teeth talk. They will tell you their invoice is a flat 24% off msrp, a lie... they will tell you this coach has something special.. a lie.. they will tell you all kinds of stuff, don't listen to a word of it. Keep the phrase in your mind.. "if their mouth is open..."

When you get to finance, and the deal is written on paper.. then you pull out your own better financing and watch the color run off his face.

Further, RVT.com will always show a clearer picture. For instance, I was looking at a tiffin 33aa. MSRP 256000. On rvt.com, most dealers have it listed for 225, but two list it for 179 and 175. About 30% off msrp. they tipped the hand already letting you know it's possible.

And whatever you do, don't ever mouth off about your career, how high up you were, all of that kind of stuff people tell one another so we can feel good about ourselves. The salesman will always use anything you say against you.

See, this is a funny game, where you both want something. You want that new rv, and they want another deal in their pocket. Normally, you are not thinking about them and what they want because you're naturally focused on what you want, and your own excitement of it all (and it IS exciting!)

Normally, they get to use that against you, but when you follow my route, you excite THIER greedy desire for another deal in their pocket, another commission, another feather from the boss. If you can excite that in them like a microwave excites molecules in food to make it hot, you have the leg up.

Things for you to keep in mind when YOU get excited that will bring you back to earth.

1) It's just a "thing" - an object made of metal and wood.
2) there's tens of thousands of them out there.
3) there's always another opportunity around the corner just as sure as another wave at the beach will come in.
4) it will happen when the time is right, and no sooner.

IF you already messed up with your current salesman by blabbing about your life and budget, just find another one. It's hard to take those words back.

Practice the silent routine by simply visiting dealers with no intent of buying right then. A couple of trips out and you get used to it. It's very awkward cause we as humans normally want to fill empty space by talking.

Educate yourself so you don't have to rely on them to teach you anything about it (most don't have good product knowledge anyway).

And if I knew exactly what I wanted, I would have no problem with working a deal over the phone only. never even showing up or by being out of state.

best of luck to you! remember, those big ole' dealerships make their living robbing naive people. It's your job to turn the tables in your favor without remorse, without feeling bad about it, this is just business. Be smart, keep as much of your own hard earned cash as you can. You're not a sucker, and you won't stand for it - the way they treat people is awful.
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Old 11-06-2014, 06:55 AM   #32
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Mojoracing, I'm sure there are "challenging" customers walking into dealerships. But I doubt seriously he would be allowed to eat up much salesman time. Very difficult to take his write-up or supposed approach to RV buying seriously at all.
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Old 11-06-2014, 11:18 AM   #33
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New RV: Dealer negotiation tips?

Adversary. That is the buyer's typical relationship with many salesmen. Most of the time the buyer just doesn't realize it. I like the post by mojoracing, alot. I get his attitude.

I used to be a nice nonconfrontational sort. But, enough is enough. You can't bust the bastas in the chops now, can you?


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Old 11-06-2014, 12:24 PM   #34
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The responses on this thread are amazing. You are stereotyping salesmen and being very rude. I had to ask questions to qualify you so I know how to address your interests, it's important to know how you're going to use it and what knowledge you have, otherwise I don't know what to show you. Most shoppers act like idiots, wasting time when the salesman could be talking to a reasonable person. Please everyone, don't listen to the rude comments on how to behave like a know it all jerk like I read on this thread.
By the way, spoke to my new agent who is currently at CW selling RVs and his income has dropped considerably this year. Also, they are going to a one price system which hasn't worked very well in the past.

Salespeople are victims of the dealers, being shortchanged constantly on commissions. They know nothing about the dealer cost or factory incentives which are mostly for volume. Buyers are liars and the more educated, the more rude the tend to be. You people have no compassion. I don't trust professional people to represent me without me knowing what needs to be done, any profession. I hope this ends this thread.
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Old 11-06-2014, 12:35 PM   #35
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Me too!
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Old 11-06-2014, 12:43 PM   #36
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The responses on this thread are amazing. You are stereotyping salesmen and being very rude. I had to ask questions to qualify you so I know how to address your interests, it's important to know how you're going to use it and what knowledge you have, otherwise I don't know what to show you. Most shoppers act like idiots, wasting time when the salesman could be talking to a reasonable person. Please everyone, don't listen to the rude comments on how to behave like a know it all jerk like I read on this thread.
By the way, spoke to my new agent who is currently at CW selling RVs and his income has dropped considerably this year. Also, they are going to a one price system which hasn't worked very well in the past.

Salespeople are victims of the dealers, being shortchanged constantly on commissions. They know nothing about the dealer cost or factory incentives which are mostly for volume. Buyers are liars and the more educated, the more rude the tend to be. You people have no compassion. I don't trust professional people to represent me without me knowing what needs to be done, any profession. I hope this ends this thread.
I hope this thread continues, guys like me can sort thru the posts and learn something. That is why I hang out on these forums. Do not worry, I have been flamed more than once, and learned quickly to try to smother 'em in kindness, that or stay pissed off all day trying to think of something clever to come back with. These forums are supposed to be a way for us fellow RV'ers to swap info, to trade stories, and maybe even just accept that not everybody wants to learn something new. That is OK, too. I appreciate the input from both sides of this thread, starting with the OP, then Gerryl explaining his side, and of course the obvious folks that are trying to enlighten the rest of us to their views of being on the "other side". I am glad to see how passionate both sides are, the best thing I try to do with these forums is to leave my ego at home. It does not always work, just ask my wife. . .

Bruce
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Old 11-06-2014, 12:43 PM   #37
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New RV: Dealer negotiation tips?

Why make the process difficult!
The point in buying an RV is that it is all about MY cash, and not about building relationships, et al.
I research very thoroughly and go in knowing what I will pay, and hold tight to it and the only meaningful numbers on paper are mine.
And when I close the deal, I write a check.
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Old 11-06-2014, 08:11 PM   #38
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University Ford in Ann Arbor Michigan sells more Ford vehicles than anyone in the midwest. Maybe more. Why? Because they deal fairly, don't shuck and jive and treat customers well.


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Old 11-06-2014, 08:29 PM   #39
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The MSRP for our toy hauler was $109,000. A neighboring dealer had a similar TH on sale for $87,000. We started there and continued to negotiate until we were down to $77,000. It takes time but is well worth it.
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:36 AM   #40
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The vast majority of folks are very nice. Granted it can be frustrating on both ends whether it is a house, car or RV. The more informed both the salesperson and the customer are, the easier things go. I think mutual respect is the best way to handle any situation and come to happy median.
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:30 AM   #41
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As a suggestion, and I'm assuming it's a used RV, try as low as 25%. We traded a very nice '06 5er and 3 of 4 stealerships were at and even a bit below that point in two cases. The one we ended up with 'paid' us NADA book average trade.
Forget the unsubstantiated values on the NADA guidebook. They're prepared by people in Kansas City that have never stepped foot in a RV. They don't take time to analyze the retail RV market and retail sales. They decide a baseline price for a unit, and depreciate the RV by a percentage monthly. It's just a fictional book banks and credit unions have to substantiate the amounts advanced on RV loans to bank examiners.

The RV business is somewhat like the auto/truck business--but with differences. In both, you're unlikely to beat the dealers and salesmen at their own game. Both have comparable costs of doing business, however a medium size car business sells 50 units per month. A medium size RV dealer might sell 50 units a year. The RV dealer cannot sell'em @ $100 over cost and remain in business.

I've found you've got to look for a "fair deal" on RV's and boats and comparison shopping is the best way to do business. It's also great to have the internet for great information.

One dealer in just about every region will stick out as the dominant RV dealership--and one other dealers have to price against. I obtained the lowball price from a very large RV dealership in my state to order a fifth wheel at my specs. I was visiting another dealer and told him that price--and they beat it by $1K. The difference was the second dealer had the same unit on order, and they called the factory and made minor spec changes and it was on the ground in 3 weeks--instead of 2 mos.
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:55 PM   #42
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We bought our motorhome and two cars by emailing about 20 dealers with the exact specs and the one that came in lowest got our money.

It was an extremely simple process with no haggling.
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