Nitrogen ?

[henryn]

Originally Posted by dieselclacker

Inflate your tires with helium, your rig will go over the bumps easier, and you can get away with running worn out shock absorbers. Suurrre you can,.

Dieselclacker

Awwww you beat me too it. I was reading the posts and also thought about helium, but for a "lighter" ride. safe travels and as long as there is air....i'm rolling

[bucks2]

Racing (such as NASCAR) uses Nitrogen because it it's a lot easier to have a bottle of dry Nitrogen in the pits than a air compressor w/filter dryer - and where would you plug it in?


PHESPE


[/QUOTE]
I think they might plug it in the same place they plug in the compressor for the pneumatic AIR GUNS they change the tires with. That's just a guess and not based in scientific fact, but it sounds logical.

Ken

[bucks2]

The theory behind nitrogen in tires is that the nitrogen molecule is significantly larger than the oxygen molecule. Nitrogen "generators" simply take out the majority of the oxygen from the air leaving 95% or so nitrogen to fill the tire. (air has roughly 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen)

So in theory the larger molecule will not leak out of the tire as quickly as the oxygen molecule. Race car and aircraft owners and the military have believed in nitrogen filled tires for years. Virtually all vehicle and tire manufacturers recognize that tires do leak down over time and all recommend that you check and adjust the inflation pressures regularly. Optimum tire life and fuel mileage is obtained with proper inflation. If your tires never leak, congratulations, virtually every tire loses air.

Oxygen leads to oxidation. Whether you call it tire rot, or any other name, oxidation is slowly degrading the "rubber" and the steel in your tires. All tire compounds have some amount of porosity, tiny little holes that gasses can permeate. The gas used to inflate your tires is under pressure, up to 110psi or more, and will migrate thru those holes into the steel belts and eventually out of the tire. Nitrogen filled tires in theory do not oxidize as quickly as those with oxygen in them.

Depending on your wants and needs you might want to consider nitrogen in your motorhome and trailer tires. Those who depend on their tires, race car and airplane owners and the military obviously think the idea has merit. Not all tire stores charge extra for nitrogen. Typically tires filled with nitrogen have bright green valve cover caps. Is it worth paying for nitrogen? I guess that depends on whether you believe in the theory.

http://tirenitrogen.typepad.com/tech...ing%20%232.pdf

Ken

[frankdamp]

As I've posted before, based on work I did for Boeing, unless you can run your RV at speeds approaching 150 mph for 2 miles with a dragging brake, nitrogen doesn't offer ANY benefits.

I researched a number of in-flight tire bursts which had caused serious damage (and in about 5 cases, the crash of the airplane). Every case had excessive heat transmitted to the tire, either because of a dragging brake during taxi and take-off or a substantial number of full stop landings followed by brisk take-offs during training sorties which didn't allow the brakes to cool.

One case, a 727, had a failure at about 20,000 feet after taking off from Reagan National Airport. The steel cable tire bead reinforcement had failed in tension. We figured that would have taken an internal pressure in excess of 12,000 psi. It was eventually determined that the tire had got so hot that explosive gases had been released into the inflation volume and then had spontaneously combusted.

So, unless your RV can do 150 mph with a dragging brake and has the ability to retract its wheels into a small compartment, there's NO ADVANTAGE to warrant paying the money for a nitrogen fill. If it's free, there are no negatives, but don't pay extra.

[dieselclacker]

I always inflate my motorhome tires with nitrogen when my route takes me to altitudes over 30,000 feet. Doesn't everybody?

[bucks2]

Originally Posted by frankdamp

As I've posted before, based on work I did for Boeing, unless you can run your RV at speeds approaching 150 mph for 2 miles with a dragging brake, nitrogen doesn't offer ANY benefits.

I researched a number of in-flight tire bursts which had caused serious damage (and in about 5 cases, the crash of the airplane). Every case had excessive heat transmitted to the tire, either because of a dragging brake during taxi and take-off or a substantial number of full stop landings followed by brisk take-offs during training sorties which didn't allow the brakes to cool.

One case, a 727, had a failure at about 20,000 feet after taking off from Reagan National Airport. The steel cable tire bead reinforcement had failed in tension. We figured that would have taken an internal pressure in excess of 12,000 psi. It was eventually determined that the tire had got so hot that explosive gases had been released into the inflation volume and then had spontaneously combusted.

So, unless your RV can do 150 mph with a dragging brake and has the ability to retract its wheels into a small compartment, there's NO ADVANTAGE to warrant paying the money for a nitrogen fill. If it's free, there are no negatives, but don't pay extra.

Using the same data presented we can also conclude that blow outs only happen if we drag the brakes at 150 mph. So, for anyone concerned about blowouts on the freeway, Frankdamps data proves that can't happen. I think I like this comparing one particular type of failure to all failures and drawing conclusions from limited data.

Ken

[JimM68]

Originally Posted by PHESPE

Racing (such as NASCAR) uses Nitrogen because it it's a lot easier to have a bottle of dry Nitrogen in the pits than a air compressor w/filter dryer - and where would you plug it in?


PHESPE

I'm not sure about the rest of that... but I've been in the infield in a nascar race or two...
And EVERY SINGLE pit has both a generator and an air compressor, they gotta power those air wrenches they change the tires with with something after all.

No clue why anyone would put nitrogen in a tire though...
Kinda reminds me of shell's "nitrogen enriched gasoline" ad campaign from a couple years ago?

[frankdamp]

Sorry, Bucks2, my data was based on blowouts caused by heat. The majority of blowouts on RVs are (I believe) caused by other failures (running over curbs, picking up debris, having tires not rated for the load they're carrying). These are mechaincal failures of the tire structure unrelated to the gas used to inflate them.

Nitrogen does nothing for you except to empty your wallet more quickly.

[Alan_Hepburn]

Originally Posted by bucks2

Racing (such as NASCAR) uses Nitrogen because it it's a lot easier to have a bottle of dry Nitrogen in the pits than a air compressor w/filter dryer - and where would you plug it in?

The reason NASCAR uses nitrogen is because the engineers can predict with some accuracy how much pressure increase they will get for a given increase in tire temperature. Ordinary air from a compressor can have moisture in it, which makes its expansion somewhat unpredictable. When a difference of 1.2 lb of pressure can mean the difference between a competitive car and an uncontrollable missile it helps that you can accurately predict that the tire pressure will increase by a given amount over the course of the run.

Our RVs and cars do not need that 1/2 lb of accuracy in order for us to successfully get from point A to point B safely, so it doesn't matter if the air in our tires expands by 1/2 lb or 3 lbs between gas stops - we'll still get there without slamming a wall in the corner, or taking someone out on that decreasing radius freeway on-ramp...

[bucks2]

Originally Posted by frankdamp

Sorry, Bucks2, my data was based on blowouts caused by heat. The majority of blowouts on RVs are (I believe) caused by other failures (running over curbs, picking up debris, having tires not rated for the load they're carrying). These are mechaincal failures of the tire structure unrelated to the gas used to inflate them.

Nitrogen does nothing for you except to empty your wallet more quickly.

This study http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/FordB...earchRaper.pdf indicates that the use of nitrogen reduces the oxidation/aging of the rubber (term "rubber" used generically) from inside the tire. The studies it is based on indicate many "peeling" type tire failures are from aged rubber inside the tire.

I recall that many posters on this list have expressed concern over the failure of tires. I believe many blowouts are caused by heat from underinflation, and from aged rubber as this study indicates in addition to the reasons Frank mentions. And just for the record FrankDamp, I respect your opinion on why tire failures occur. I think you should add underinflation/heat damage to it.

It is true as someone pointed out that even by filling the tire with nitrogen there is oxygen outside the tire. Yes, but the oxygen outside the tire isn't at 100 psi. Does someone here think that the oxygen outside the tire is forcing its way into the rubber? Or is it more likely that the gas inside the tire, either oxygen/nitrogen mixture (air) or nitrogen only (with caveats that it's not pure nitrogen) is trying to force its way out? So, I think it is reasonable to believe any permeation would be from the inside.

In the study cited, they cut tires apart and determined there was oxidation of the steel belts and of the tire rubber. For those that question whether the inflation gas(s) permeate the rubber, how did the oxidation occur? Is it then impossible to believe that some of the blowouts which have occured, in tires which the owners swear weren't abused physically in any way, which looked good from outside observation, were actually caused by aging from the inside, exacerbated by the oxygen used to fill the tire?

Hasn't the tire industry for years now, insisted on plugging the tire and patching from the inside due to the known danger of oxidation (rusting) of the steel tire belts? We know that oxidation of the belts can result in failure of the tire. Why then would we put oxygen under pressure inside the tire to migrate to the steel belts?

The strong opinions against nitrogen inflation is astounding. Most appear to be opinions based on gut feeling. With the cost of replacing tires on age rather than mileage, the cost and inconvenience of a failure, and the minimal or no cost of filling the tires with nitrogen, and since no one has even postulated that there is any damage by nitrogen filled tires, it seems like an easy change to make.

I have no connections of any manner to the nitrogen market. My experience as a NIASE (now ASE) mechanic ended before nitrogen in tires became the issue it is today.

Someone mentioned a cost of $5.00 to fill tires with nitrogen at some dealership. 1% of the cost of a tire is an outrageous charge? New valve stems cost more than that. What would adding one year of use to your tires be worth? Or the avoidance of one blowout? Compared to the cost of my motorhome, what's $5.00? Nothing!

Ken

[BigmoneySr]

I always thought that tires filled with nitrogen help keep them from cracking and extend the life of the tire

[bucks2]

Originally Posted by BigmoneySr

I always thought that tires filled with nitrogen help keep them from cracking and extend the life of the tire

Haven't you read this thread? I'm pretty sure that if you read all the studies and data cited by the naysayers you'll be convinced that it doesn't work.

Yours truly, tongue in cheek,
Ken

[ottffss]

Originally Posted by BigmoneySr

I always thought that tires filled with nitrogen help keep them from cracking and extend the life of the tire

But, do you need "all the benefits of" nitrogen in order to reach the tire manufactures suggested service life (~7odd years)?????

Hence, the personal question each much answer is (quietly in the privacy of your own RV please): Is it worth the extra effort to use/maintain nitrogen just to reach the recommended tire life when air will get you there as well?

There really is NO question nitrogen has the benefits ascribed to it. Using it is always simply a cost vs benefit decision and what each individual perceives that benefit is to their actual bottom line.

For me, air will get me to the tire service life every time. Hence, the "hassle" of nitrogen is simply not worth it.

[BigmoneySr]

I wonder what the percentage of RV owner's have nitrogen in their tires??40% ???