Nitrogen in tires?

[MegaRoadie]

Had a bit of fun with a local "service advisor" at a GMC Dealership a while back... this poor fella had obviously been to the dealer's brainwash/morning-how to scam customer meetings too long or was subjected to leaking nitrogen while some "tech rep" weasel was hyperventillating the sales folks with Pure Dealer BS !

He was explaining to me how the "New Nitrogen Gas Filling Service" was going to revolutionize the tire industry ! His level of excitement and enthusiasm was only closely approached by the sheer misinformation and pure misunderstanding of what he was saying and to whom he was saying it:

* Nitrigen gas molecules were way larger than air molucules and this would ensure less leakage
* Nitrogen was an "innerrt" gas, which meant it would not catch fire or burn and tires were way less susceptable to burst into flames going down the road.
* All NASCAR cars and trucks were using nitrogen and it helped tire mileage and greatly reduced wear for them so everyday cars were definately gonna benefit from this !
* Just one fill would help scrub out all that olde oxygen from the tire interior and make it last way longer....etc

Having been a Nuclear Health Physicist, Gas Free Engineer, Nuclear Chemist and Nuclear Engineer for most of the past 40 years I literally bristled at the pure lack of ANY fact or logic in any of his statements, and to make it worse he had the brochures to "back-up" the fraudulent claims.

After alowing him to "self-extinguish" I smiled, explained that his sales pitch fell on deaf, educated ears, and that 99.9% of what he had just said was false and misleading and that I would advise the Better Business Bureau. Shortly after having done the BBB thing I noted that the dealership discontinued the big pitch approach and the nitrogen ripoff ceased to be a major offering.

HOW SAD to have to see the pettiness and coniving that occurs in these "service advisor lanes" at today's car dealer service areas.

Enjoy the Open Road and Thank a Veteran for our great freedoms !

[Arch Hoagland]

Snake Oil.

[frankdamp]

Megaroadie:

Well done and well said, sir! I've posted my Boeing research several times on three major RV newsgroups and still people are falling for this BS!

I guess some folks are just too gullible to protect themselves from "pseudo-science" when it's being pushed by a sales person who sounds convincing. I'm glad I went for an engineering education. Sure saved a lot of money over the years.

[ottffss]

Originally Posted by MegaRoadie

* Nitrigen gas molecules were way larger than air molucules and this would ensure less leakage
* Nitrogen was an "innerrt" gas, which meant it would not catch fire or burn and tires were way less susceptable to burst into flames going down the road.
* All NASCAR cars and trucks were using nitrogen and it helped tire mileage and greatly reduced wear for them so everyday cars were definately gonna benefit from this !
* Just one fill would help scrub out all that olde oxygen from the tire interior and make it last way longer....etc

Oh come on now, give the overly exuberant sales chap a little credence.... Here's the score card as I see it:

* Nitrigen gas molecules were way larger than air molucules and this would ensure less leakage
-->score 1 for you score 0 for the chap: Not sure anyone has ever really seen an "air molecule" so that reference is just a tad vague.

* Nitrogen was an "innerrt" gas, which meant it would not catch fire or burn and tires were way less susceptable to burst into flames going down the road.
-->score 1 for you score 1 for the chap: Nitrogen, though not an inert gas, certainly does little to promote combustion. Though a tire fire has nothing to do with what filled it.

* All NASCAR cars and trucks were using nitrogen and it helped tire mileage and greatly reduced wear for them so everyday cars were definately gonna benefit from this !
-->score 1 for you score 2 for the chap: NASCAR does use nitrogen in their tires. However, our daily drivers will certainly NOT "definitely benefit" just because of this NASCAR experience though. Two different uses and needs.

* Just one fill would help scrub out all that olde oxygen from the tire interior and make it last way longer....etc
--> score 2 for you and score 2 for the chap: Let's just let this one die it's own death...

Seems the score is actually even. But that still does NOT make the value of nitrogen in street driven tires cost/time effective in any way. But the little green valve covers are pretty cool!

[BobKomar]

I carry a bottle of nitrogen with me, for shocks on sand cars and quads, not for tires!

[bucks2]

The reason that O2, despite a larger MW 32, has a smaller diameter than N2 MW 28, lies in the electronic structure of the molecules. As indicated by quantum mechanical theory of molecules, the electrons of a molecule form a diffuse "cloud" surrounding the nuclei of the atoms in the molecule. The electron cloud around the oxygen nuclei in the O2 molecule is smaller, more compact in size, due to attractive electrostatic interactions between the electrons in the cloud and the greater positive charge of the nuclei of the O atoms in the O2 molecule. Each oxygen atom has 8
protons in its nucleus, while each nitrogen atom has only 7 protons in its nucleus. Thus, the overall size of the electron cloud of the O2 molecule is smaller than for N2, in part because its electron cloud is drawn in closer to the O nuclei by the greater positive charge on the O nuclei.
The dimension of the molecule's electron cloud defines the size and shape for a given type of molecule. When one molecule bumps into another molecule, the outer-most extent of the electron clouds of each molecule repel each other in that local vicinity of the contact between the molecules. Each colliding molecule's electron cloud experiences a repulsion, due to the proximity to the like electrical charge of electrons around the other molecule in the collision. Since like electrical charges repel each other (like-repels-like), the electrostatic interaction between the electron clouds of the colliding molecules is repulsive. That repulsion effectively defines the size of the molecules.
O2 "permeates" approximately 3-4 times faster than does N2 through a typical rubber, as is used in tires, primarily because O2 has a slightly smaller effective molecular size than does N2.

http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf

[Mr_D]

Normal air is already 78% Nitrogen so that's what I use. The one advantage of Nirtogen is that it's "dry", you can get pretty much the same by using an air dryer on your compressor. Guess I better go buy one for mine!

[Windy City]

Bucks, thanks for the awesome post!
There is a lot of gobble gook backed up on this post. I am in control of 20 vehicles here and went to Nitrogen several years ago. Yes it is more stable at the track in both my cars and motorcycles, but the main reason is the longevity of keeping pressures up. Works terrific for trailers.
For approximately $150 anyone can buy a regulator and tire filler made for nitrogen. A small compressed gas cylinder can fill a lot of tires! I pull the valve from the stem, empty the tire, put the valve back, and fill with nitrogen.
If anyone here has a newer car, with the governments wonderful Ford Explorer tire roll over sellout (TPMS) they know the irritation of tire pressure fluctuation with alloy wheels and temperature changes. Nitrogen takes care of this quite handily.
I speak from several years of recorded first hand experience and I will continue to keep nitrogen in my tires, on and off the track.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by bucks2

O2 "permeates" approximately 3-4 times faster than does N2 through a typical rubber, as is used in tires, primarily because O2 has a slightly smaller effective molecular size than does N2.

So each time I add air to my tires I get a higher and higher percentage of Nitrogen in them since the other molicules have "leached" out.

[bucks2]

Originally Posted by Windy City

Bucks, thanks for the awesome post!
There is a lot of gobble gook backed up on this post. I am in control of 20 vehicles here and went to Nitrogen several years ago. Yes it is more stable at the track in both my cars and motorcycles, but the main reason is the longevity of keeping pressures up. Works terrific for trailers.
For approximately $150 anyone can buy a regulator and tire filler made for nitrogen. A small compressed gas cylinder can fill a lot of tires! I pull the valve from the stem, empty the tire, put the valve back, and fill with nitrogen.
If anyone here has a newer car, with the governments wonderful Ford Explorer tire roll over sellout (TPMS) they know the irritation of tire pressure fluctuation with alloy wheels and temperature changes. Nitrogen takes care of this quite handily.
I speak from several years of recorded first hand experience and I will continue to keep nitrogen in my tires, on and off the track.

I'm waiting for the storm of controversy over the oxidation of the tire material, and steel belts. Since tire failure raises so many peoples blood pressure, when you show them a way to possibly reduce the failure rate for pennies in their $400-$600 tires, they have to back pedal and come up with other excuses. We'll see how creative they are.

Ken

[dieselclacker]

I still prefer using helium in my tires for the easy light ride it produces over bumpy roads. . Well....thats about as good a reason as the reasons for using nitrogen. IMHO of course.

[BigmoneySr]

Where can you buy a fill up for nitrogen

[hometwn2]

Originally Posted by bucks2

The reason that O2, despite a larger MW 32, has a smaller diameter than N2 MW 28, lies in the electronic structure of the molecules. As indicated by quantum mechanical theory of molecules, the electrons of a molecule form a diffuse "cloud" surrounding the nuclei of the atoms in the molecule. The electron cloud around the oxygen nuclei in the O2 molecule is smaller, more compact in size, due to attractive electrostatic interactions between the electrons in the cloud and the greater positive charge of the nuclei of the O atoms in the O2 molecule. Each oxygen atom has 8

protons in its nucleus, while each nitrogen atom has only 7 protons in its nucleus. Thus, the overall size of the electron cloud of the O2 molecule is smaller than for N2, in part because its electron cloud is drawn in closer to the O nuclei by the greater positive charge on the O nuclei.
The dimension of the molecule's electron cloud defines the size and shape for a given type of molecule. When one molecule bumps into another molecule, the outer-most extent of the electron clouds of each molecule repel each other in that local vicinity of the contact between the molecules. Each colliding molecule's electron cloud experiences a repulsion, due to the proximity to the like electrical charge of electrons around the other molecule in the collision. Since like electrical charges repel each other (like-repels-like), the electrostatic interaction between the electron clouds of the colliding molecules is repulsive. That repulsion effectively defines the size of the molecules.
O2 "permeates" approximately 3-4 times faster than does N2 through a typical rubber, as is used in tires, primarily because O2 has a slightly smaller effective molecular size than does N2.

http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf

what??

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by hometwn2

what??

It's a cut-and-paste from the linked website that's promoting the use of nitrogen.

Rusty