PG&E shut us off again, but who needs them....?

[Fanukalum]

Originally Posted by Hit_the_Rhod

On your comment in RED above: Well Said! You sound a lot like me, I don't have to impress anyone but myself!



On the last paragraph about solar, I see a LOT of value in it, especially for boats, because I still haven't figured out how to carry enough extension cord to power accessories I may want to run while anchored off of, say an island in the Bahama's. And I really don't care to run a genny 24/7. Most people figure the cost of generator power at how much fuel alone costs . . .not the maintenance a well maintained generator demands, or the cost of the generator to begin with, but they will be the first ones to tear down someone spending $6k on solar! News flash for those who are interested, to purchase new, or replace my Onan 7.5kw diesel generator in my RV, the cost would be NORTH of $7k! To purchase or replace say a comparable Northern Lights Marine Generator would be substantially more . . . so more cost than your $6k for solar, less maintenance, no fuel purchase, and quieter as well. Batteries of the proper capacity will hold you over the night when solar isn't available too, personally I would still like a generator as a BACKUP to solar, but not as my primary power, but that's just me

The SUN shines bright on my Ol' Kentucky Home....
Sorry couldn't help myself

[millsrv]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

Yes, you could say Im drinking the cool aide - I live in a vineyard! 40 acres of it anyway, in beautiful rolling hills in rural ranch land surrounded by really great neighbors ar least a half mile away. I grew up here, so did my grand parents. My family settled here in the 1850’s. My grandmother was born in Sierra City in the 1870s. So my heritage is here and more important to me than the fact that a bunch of socialists are in charge right now. Politics ebbs and flows - family history is forever.

But Im “touting the merits” of solar and lithiums for boondocking, and its just a pleasant side benefit that I can power everything necessary here from my RV without running a generator during PG&E’s little tantrums. And as for PG&E, I have a pretty good idea of what they are actually doing and why, and it will be interesting to see if Im right. Its not what they are saying to the public, and its not what the customers are complaining about. But Ive been here a while and seen this sort of thing before.

As for solar, why not? Its fun, clean, quiet, and saves money. Granted across this great nation, many people have electricity bills so low it would never make sense financially. And as far as “saving the planet” goes, well thats just so stupid it doesn't merit discussion. Humans will be extinct some day and billions of years later the planet will still be spinning through space with not a care in the um, world...

But Ive done well in California, its part of my heritage, I have seven grand kids here, I love the climate(s), it has tremendous resources, an amazing economy in spite of the politics, and Im staying, even though I pay almost $20,000 per year in property taxes, sale tax is always increasing, gas tax is ridiculous, there is a state income tax, and all the while the politicians are working diligently to waste it all. I can afford it and I like it here. And of course once you get a grip on California real estate (and double tax-exempt calif municipals) you are set for life.

Anyway back on topic, my coach battery was still at 77% when the sun came up and I wont have to run the genny (18kw propane unit) until its time to irrigate.

Cheers!

Edit: I also spent 20 years living at over 4000’ on the edge of the American River canyon 2000’ above rhe river, where there was not a light in sight at night (Hmmm - poetry) for fifty miles and to say the winters were severe is an understatement, so it hasn't always been sunshine and easy living, but it has always been good living.

I'm right there with you as another native living in the Sierra Foothills on 10 Acres. You could not have said it better my friend!

[joesesto]

Originally Posted by V3600

I understand it is illegal to clear dead/downed trees in Cali but isn't it a major cause of the fires, too much kindling laying around? Several friends are bailing from Cali, latest are going to Utah.

Many fires are exacerbated by the undergrowth that is not cleared in forested areas too close to built up residential areas. High winds can blow these burning embers 100s of yard in seconds. Often the tree bark is just singed, but all that is left of the homes are old masonry fireplaces/chimneys. Hundreds of 1000s of deadfalls exist in the Sierra after years of drought and/or disease, but they have not been involved in the headline wildfires in the past couple of years. I've read that changes to the CA Building Code are being considered to minimize the burning embers hazard, new wood roofs have been illegal for years, for about 10 years new homes must be sprinklered, zero clearance fireplaces with chimney caps have been required for decades, but many homes are not built with wood burning fireplaces due to pollution ordinances anyhow. 650,000 Californians left last year, but 500,000 newcomers came in. Most leaving CA go to western states with lower taxes and their home equity from here buys a mansion elsewhere. As others on this thread have said, it is like no other place in the lower 48, if you have the resources to sustain your lifestyle here. I have visited 49 of the 50, most in my RV and while no place is perfect, none can compare to our part of CA year around.

Hint, check Generac stock...it doubled in the last year.

[NeilV]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

This isnt a dumb question - cant be because I dint know the answer....

Here’s what I can say off the top of my head:

Any battery can be used and I think a Prius would be a good doner. 2004 was a long time ago in battery evolution terms so it might not be worth the cost of building a set-up that would run off it, but if the battery is good maybe. Ill get a definitive answer today or tomorrow. Obviously you have to be careful dismantling the battery to remove the cells for repurposing. I was carrying a “12 pack” of nissan batteries and managed to short the bus bars against my belt buckle! Big arc, lots of amperage, so....

But you might want to wait for better info before you bother dissecting it, unless you want to do it for the experience. Also a large portion of these batteries becomes automotive junk when you do this. I’ll put it on the list. My son will know with absolute certainty.

At 600 lbs and 24 kWh at 400 volts you do want to exercise caution with the complete Leaf battery. As for heat resistance the ones to look for are late 2014 and newer which are considered Lizard Formulation to better deal with hot weather. In 2015 the newer Nissan Lizard batteries jumped to 30 kWh and today they are 48 kWh with a new optional 60. The Leaf batteries are air cooled as installed in the car and now Nissan is offering factory refurbished 24 kWh batteries for a little over $2,000 the last I heard.

2/3 of 600 lbs is still 400 lbs and with many coaches only having a 1,000 to 2,000 lb capacity for people and stuff you could be loosing 1/4 to 1/2 your weight capacity using 2/3 of a 24 kWh battery.

Note that most car batteries will get changed when they drop below 70% capacity and even then that's around 16 kWh of power storage from a 24 kWh battery without any refurbishing, etc.

Many Hybrid dealers that service the Prius will have batteries that have been gone over and repackaged with only good cells after being balance charged however the Prius batteries along with those in other Hybrids will generally be quite a bit smaller than those in the Leaf which is a full plug in electric with no gasoline engine and yes a 15 year old battery is prehistoric compared to those made 5 years ago.

Many times though its not bad cells but due to the complexity of the batteries certain cells loosing balance with the rest of the pack with the charge management system not able to deal with it so for safety's sake they stop using them. When that is the case a good battery shop will take the battery out of the car, open it up and balance charge the banks that are out of sync to restore the batteries capacity without having to replace many and at times without having to replace any cells.


Bottom line though you do want to show due diligence on having enough air movement and a good charge management scheme to prevent overheating. I would be inclined to have a ColdFire Suppression System installed with the batteries too.

As installed in cars they have a number of emergency disconnects with labeling to warn first responders of the system and the constant presence of lethal current from the batteries so you would want to also provide for similar.

[Janjim]

Originally Posted by followingsea

Walmart has a nice Merlot for $2.96 unfortunately it is bottled in California. I am anti-California wine. A while back I posted about another Walmart Merlot for $2.96 but this was bottled in Spain. Unfortunately I did not buy every bottle I could find.

Red wine was something I enjoyed with my late wife and am careful with solo intake. I will open a bottle with friends like at the yacht club. I belong to drinking club with a boating problem.

yuck walmart yuck $2.96 wine

P.S. R Wold that petite sirah sounds nice!

[RogueRV]

Originally Posted by V3600

And yet there are still fires burning. I grew up in SoCal and remember the hot dry Santa Ana winds. Those are the winds we have here in southern AZ all summer long but nothing burns. I understand it is illegal to clear dead/downed trees in Cali but isn't it a major cause of the fires, too much kindling laying around? Several friends are bailing from Cali, latest are going to Utah.

I managed Federal Lands in Oregon and California for nearly 30 years. The problem with allowing the public to take "dead and down" firewood is that 95% of the people are responsible but there are always those that aren't and unfortunately regulations are usually written for that 5%. Do you really want people out in driest conditions using chain saws cutting up firewood and then leaving all the limbs on the ground?

[chanson100]

Originally Posted by V3600

And yet there are still fires burning. I grew up in SoCal and remember the hot dry Santa Ana winds. Those are the winds we have here in southern AZ all summer long but nothing burns. I understand it is illegal to clear dead/downed trees in Cali but isn't it a major cause of the fires, too much kindling laying around? Several friends are bailing from Cali, latest are going to Utah.

Of course it is NOT illegal to clear downed dead trees in California. It is a property owners responsibility to keep their property clear. The problems are many including large areas of Forest both National and State managed, BLM etc... that are vast and difficult to manage without major spending. Climate change has now brought the Santa Ana winds to Northern CA, which were rare in past decades. There has also been a beetle invasion killing certain varieties of trees leaving more fire material in those places where we like to boondock. All in all, not an easy problem to solve. A 4th generation Californian in my 60’s.

[BigSkyCountr]

What's really a shame about power cuts in California, is the individuals not effected are prison inmates. The second the power is cut, the prisons fire up their generators and inmates lives go on as usual. Glad your tax dollars are going where they are needed most. Would hate for the politicians to treat the taxpayers as well as they treat the criminals. That's why we moved out.

[R.Wold]

Admittedly we strayed a but wide of the mark here (thanks FollowingSea...), but this thread was more or less intended to be about using RV auxiliary power during outages and a discussion on solar and battery options and systems.

PG&E is a publicly traded, share holder owned utility. It isn't the government. State govt would love to get their hands on it which would probably make it worse, but thats another thread.

As for our incarcerated citizens, they would probably prefer the dark, and Id rather the corrections employees had power and anything else they need to keep order and protect themselves.

Frankly while the power was out and I was sitting out here at my ranch, drinking estate grown, produced, and bottled wine by candlelight, with my coach keeping my fridge going, and no noise but the neighbors generator a half mile away, and contemplating another bank of lithiums for my coach, it never occurred to me that prison inmates might have it better.

Maybe you could start an new thread in the General Discussion like “Lets all bag on Ca” and then folks could compare and contrast the relative pros and cons of west coast living vs everywhere else. That would be interesting.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Janjim

yuck walmart yuck $2.96 wine

P.S. R Wold that petite sirah sounds nice!

Even the 17, when allowed to breath a bit, is comparable to $30 store shelf wines. Really quite palatable. I have six cases of it in the cellar so I’ll have plenty to age. Next up is a Viognier we pressed in July (early harvest equals a dry fruity wine) and we just pressed a Cabernet Franc that already fermented and is in the barrel doing its thing.

And to keep this on topic (did I mention I tend to digress) the coach batteries powered the cellar cooler during outages too.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by NeilV

At 600 lbs and 24 kWh at 400 volts you do want to exercise caution with the complete Leaf battery. As for heat resistance the ones to look for are late 2014 and newer which are considered Lizard Formulation to better deal with hot weather. In 2015 the newer Nissan Lizard batteries jumped to 30 kWh and today they are 48 kWh with a new optional 60. The Leaf batteries are air cooled as installed in the car and now Nissan is offering factory refurbished 24 kWh batteries for a little over $2,000 the last I heard.

2/3 of 600 lbs is still 400 lbs and with many coaches only having a 1,000 to 2,000 lb capacity for people and stuff you could be loosing 1/4 to 1/2 your weight capacity using 2/3 of a 24 kWh battery.

Note that most car batteries will get changed when they drop below 70% capacity and even then that's around 16 kWh of power storage from a 24 kWh battery without any refurbishing, etc.

Many Hybrid dealers that service the Prius will have batteries that have been gone over and repackaged with only good cells after being balance charged however the Prius batteries along with those in other Hybrids will generally be quite a bit smaller than those in the Leaf which is a full plug in electric with no gasoline engine and yes a 15 year old battery is prehistoric compared to those made 5 years ago.

Many times though its not bad cells but due to the complexity of the batteries certain cells loosing balance with the rest of the pack with the charge management system not able to deal with it so for safety's sake they stop using them. When that is the case a good battery shop will take the battery out of the car, open it up and balance charge the banks that are out of sync to restore the batteries capacity without having to replace many and at times without having to replace any cells.

Bottom line though you do want to show due diligence on having enough air movement and a good charge management scheme to prevent overheating. I would be inclined to have a ColdFire Suppression System installed with the batteries too.

As installed in cars they have a number of emergency disconnects with labeling to warn first responders of the system and the constant presence of lethal current from the batteries so you would want to also provide for similar.

All this is pretty spot on with the exception of weight. Ive never looked at the spec so 600lbs is news to me, but they come shipped on a pallet and it is a heavy package. My 2/3 of the battery (24 modules - 48 cells) weighs around 200lbs (just an estimate after installing it) so id say the whole battery is closer to 300lbs - the rest is automotive junk. And of course it’s no longer 400 volts. My max charge is 32.8 configured in this manner.

Also, as shipped the Leaf battery is about 3 times the size of the actual modules. Take a look at my pic - that battery is 24 modules taking up a 12”x 14” x 36” space. its also sitting right on a frame rail which is nice.

My battery came out of a 2014. I may have said 13 earlier - if so I was off a year. These things bump up a generation every two years or so. If I were doing it again, Id go after a 2017 battery, but $2000 for a 24kwh refurb sounds interesting .

And yes its imperative to monitor all the cells, keep them balanced, keep the pack cool, etc. We can charge and balance the modules here individually and do so prior to installation. Then the cells are all monitored to keep them safe and happy.

Heat is the enemy even if not at hazardous levels so my battery pack is completely separate from any heat sources and well ventilated. I also have safety shut downs based on charge, discharge, heat, etc. so I see no need for a suppression system under these conditions, but its an interesting thought.

I've never heard the term “Lizard” but I get the analogy. 2019 Leaf batteries are said to pack 60kwh and have even better cooling than previous models. It just keeps getting better.

There is no comparison to lead acid for weight and capacity. Its the complexity that will stop most people from making the change and buying LiFePO if they want lithiums, which is good enough and compatible with 12v panels and simple chargers.

We also put Leaf modules in a couple Polaris Ranger EVs. They have twice the capacity (at least) and lose about 500lbs.

[BigSkyCountr]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

One could write volumes on the stupidity of California policy.....

Sorry, it was hard to tell what the point was when your post started off with PG&E shutting off the power in California again but you didn't care. Wasn't sure if you were complaining about California, praising your son, bragging that you didn't care or the fact that your nearest neighbor is over 1/2 a mile away. As far as a post bagging on California. They are too easy a target. 5th largest economy in the world and they can't keep the lights on.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by BigSkyCountr

Sorry, it was hard to tell what the point was when your post started off with PG&E shutting off the power in California again but you didn't care. Wasn't sure if you were complaining about California, praising your son, bragging that you didn't care or the fact that your nearest neighbor is over 1/2 a mile away. As far as a post bagging on California. They are too easy a target. 5th largest economy in the world and they can't keep the lights on.

Hey im serious on the “Lets bag on Ca” thread. I have first hand knowledge of all the wacko stuff that goes on here I could contribute. And yes Im all over the board on this thread. Hence my “wide of the mark” comment. I threw in the “half mile” thing because sometimes I get the impression that the rest of the country thinks we all live in subdivisions or apartments. Among other things, Im a farmer.

I get a lot of comments about this state when traveling too. Gas prices, utility bills, sales tax, SANCTUARY CITIES/STATE while illegals are committing heinous crimes ????. We got it coming. It has its attributes too, and on balance, Im here for the duration due to family, family history, etc. But thats one of the things I like about spending weeks on the road all over the country in an RV. You get to meet normal people!

As far as not being able to keep the lights on, its aging infrastructure that makes the grid vulnerable to fire hazards on a breezy day. They should invest more in equipment than they do. But its a “for profit” enterprise, and they have their parameters. Now that they are getting sued for billions after so many have perished in fires started by their equipment, things are changing. Shutting down the grid is just a temporary stop gap. But it isnt all PG&Es fault. Poor management of public lands has put those living in the wild land/urban interface at risk. So while PG&E must upgrade their equipment, state and federal land management has to improve as well.

So yeah, we could talk about California all day. I just didn't expect this thread to go there, since PG&E is just a private utility. But of course theres more too it than that.

[astrocamper]

I live in Nevada so I have fewer outages but I installed a manual transfer switch that feeds 10 circuits in my house. I can parallel a pair of Honda EU2200 generators if my power will be out a while.

I also use the 1405 watts on my trailer roof and 400 amp hours of LiFePO4 batteries and 2200 watt inverter to feed a few of my computer/network circuits during the day if the sun is shinning. I just flip a few circuits to the generator position when I leave for work and switch them back when I get home. This allows me to load shift some of my daytime power load off my power bill.

I can use the generator pair to power my refrigerator/freezers (I cycle through these to reduce load), evaporative cooler, furnace, lighting, networking and computers. I left my house air conditioner, stove, washer/dryer and many of the wall outlet circuits off the transfer switch system.

I have used this system for 3 power outages so far in the last 6 months. The longest outage was about 7 hours. It was a hot day and I appreciated the evaporative cooler while I watch TV and used my laptop.