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Old 01-02-2012, 07:02 AM   #71
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As Rusty said:
Quote:
I don't believe this discussion has anything to do with "wasting resources."
Partly true, There are some people who put heaters on in the basement and aico above (as posted) just to "use their right of the 50 amps".
But I do not want to go into a discussion of what is wasteful......
I can heat my, European build, caravan in the winter with a 500 watt heater.
I do camp in the winter, Austria, where temps go to -20C.
Efficiency of the RV or TT make a lot of the USED energy.
A 40 feet RV takes a lot more to heat/cool but then it gives a lot more living space (inside).

The point I tried to make is: Use the resources available efficiently.
Sorry if I came over wrongly.

Gerard.
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Old 01-02-2012, 07:21 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docj View Post
We usually try not to waste electricity or other resources even if we are not directly paying for them. If a CG has meters at each site and informs me that I will be charged for electricity, that is fine even if they mark up the cost a bit (the total per day usage isn't all that many $$). But if a CG rents me a 50A connection and doesn't want to go through the expense of installing meters at each site, then I plan on using the hookup in a manner that best suits my needs. I won't intentionally waste energy, but I will be comfortable. If that means A/C is needed I will use it; if my DW wants to bake cookies, she will; and if she wants to wash clothes in warm water (electric H/W tank) she will do that also. Specifying one particular type of electricity usage to forbid will annoy customers and have little real impact, IMHO. Stop being cheap and hire an electrician to put in meters.
Exactly what I was thinking!
If I'm paying for 50A hookup, it is implied and understood I can't use 50A (12000 watts) 24 hours a day. Same with water, it is not expected that I would leave the tap open 24 hours a day (straight to sewage).
It's also easy enough to ask if the restriction has to do with electricity use or if it's an insurance concern...
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Old 01-02-2012, 07:25 AM   #73
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LOL ... There was a CG I went to that had "free internet". I think it was a town just east of Elkhart IN. I got there and the office said it's free for something like 15 minutes which was enough time to log on and pay the fee if you want more.....Needless to say I said goodbye and found another CG.
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Old 01-02-2012, 08:08 AM   #74
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The free market rules. If you impose draconian restrictions on your customers, you will lose the customers who don't agree with those rules. They will go down the road to your competition. The free market is a wonderful thing.

As many others have stated here, I vote with my gas pedal. If I find imposed rules to be unacceptible, I drive away. If not, I abide by the rules. If the rules change in the middle of the stay, I make the assessment at that time, but I consider any previously agreed to contract null and void.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:25 AM   #75
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CG fees are based on average expenses for the rigs. If a rig uses too much of a resource it will throw off their assumptions. It's their right to set the rules at their park. If you don't like the rules that a business imposes, take your business elsewhere. If you run a business you (should) understand the risks of adding the restriction.

It is similar to the rule against washing your rig. Does anyone argue that they paid for full hook up and therefore are entitled to wash their rig every day? I haven't heard anyone say that but it is exactly the same principle.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:39 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyJC View Post
For a given amount of RV heating, the choice for most of us is using electricity or propane. An electric ceramic heater is more thermally efficient in converting energy available at the pedestal plug to BTU output than a propane furnace. As far as emissions are concerned, 100% of the output of a propane furnace is hydrocarbon based while electricity use (depending on a particular area) will have a lesser or greater amount of power from non-hydrocarbon-polluting sources (e.g., hydro, wind, nuclear, geothermal, etc.)
In terms of the fuel used, propane is much more efficient than electric. Just no way around that due to the conversion process, transmission, etc. As far as carbon emission from electricity, half of the electricity in the US is from burning coal and another quarter is due to natural gas so the effect is small (depending, as the poster said, on the region of the country). Power plants are more efficient and cleaner in burning gas fuels than our rigs, but the conversion and transmission takes away a lot of the advantage.

Nevertheless, this is all moot to the discussion at hand since the CG's point is not to save the environment but to make the bottom line profitable.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:25 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfrantz View Post
In terms of the fuel used, propane is much more efficient than electric. Just no way around that due to the conversion process, transmission, etc. As far as carbon emission from electricity, half of the electricity in the US is from burning coal and another quarter is due to natural gas so the effect is small (depending, as the poster said, on the region of the country). Power plants are more efficient and cleaner in burning gas fuels than our rigs, but the conversion and transmission takes away a lot of the advantage.

Nevertheless, this is all moot to the discussion at hand since the CG's point is not to save the environment but to make the bottom line profitable.
Read my post again, please. I'm not talking about from coal mine to heating element any more than I'm talking about from the subterranean formation to the tank for propane. That's why I stipulated "An electric ceramic heater is more thermally efficient in converting energy available at the pedestal plug to BTU output than a propane furnace."

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Old 01-02-2012, 11:50 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyJC View Post
Read my post again, please. I'm not talking about from coal mine to heating element any more than I'm talking about from the subterranean formation to the tank for propane. That's why I stipulated "An electric ceramic heater is more thermally efficient in converting energy available at the pedestal plug to BTU output than a propane furnace."

Rusty
Yes, I had read your post and it was correct; I didn't disagree with it.

My point was that if you burn a certain amount of fuel to heat an area, it is more efficient to burn it at that location rather than burn it somewhere else, convert it to electricity, transmit it, and convert it back to heat.

Perhaps I missed your point, but it is hard to compare electric heat to propane heat without considering fuel costs and transmission/transportation.

I suspect most of us use electric heat because it is included in our site costs, whereas we must buy our own propane.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:59 AM   #79
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There is also energy loss involved in drilling for, well completion, producing, processing, transporting and delivering propane (a NGL byproduct of natural gas/crude oil production). I don't believe anyone else is interested in a complete energy balance study for the purposes of this thread. My point was a ceramic electric heater has higher heating efficiency than an RV propane furnace.

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Old 01-02-2012, 06:12 PM   #80
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Whoops, we're headed here. Let's bring it back to the OP's topic please.

Thanks.

Lori-
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:31 PM   #81
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Yea. electric has a higher heating rating, Just cost's twice as much. 3000 BTUs/KW Propane is 91,000 BTUs /gal. Figure it out. Electrtic is almost 100% efficient, gas water heaters top out at about 64% efficient and most furnaces in RV's are 60-80%
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:38 PM   #82
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I really have to say that I think this issue is economic, not safety. CG owners are trying to keep the doors open and stay competitive. Personally I agree with earlier posts, that they should simply raise their rates a couple of bucks and get over it. Or at least make a request that I help them with conservation of their energy.

I do well with requests...not so much with ultimatums.
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Old 01-02-2012, 07:21 PM   #83
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The simple solution is to vote with your credit card. Move on and tell the owner why you will not stay at his DUMP.

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Old 01-02-2012, 07:34 PM   #84
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My home park, where I spend most of the year has meters, we do not have any limitations on what you can use even on the nightly rates ($30/night for the smaller closer together sites by the road and $40 a night for the larger spaced out sites in the back that also have 50 amp plugs). The monthly rates also charge electricity at $0.14/kwh and each site has a meter.

The only draw back to the no limitations is our line voltage does drop when alot of people fire up the electric heaters or the A/Cs and in hot weather the parks master breaker at the main utility feed coming from the transformer used to blow, though that didn't happen last year, but I suspect that they may have upgraded our primary service when they put in the new transformer back in the fall of 2010.
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