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Old 10-11-2013, 07:39 PM   #99
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I had already seen cases of panhandlers that were nothing but scammers before I started working for a convenience store but what I saw there was a real eye opener. I'll spare you the details but I saw everything from simple panhandling to elaborate scams so I'm pretty well jaded by panhandlers and any other kind of beggars. I've given friends and acquaintances over $1000 in the past year who were down on their luck but I won't give scammers and panhandlers the time of day.
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:13 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dr4Film View Post
I recently had a fund raising phone call from the California Professional Firefighters organization looking for donations. I committed for $25 and they sated that I would get an envelope in the mail to send in my donation. After the phone call, I decided to research exactly what this organization was all about. I quickly determine that they have an outside company do their fundraising for them and that the outside firm collects 80% of the money and the California Firefighters get about 20%. I was appalled to discover such terrible statistics.

When I received the donation envelope I wrote a check for $5 with a letter of explanation of what I had discovered and told them they should be ashamed of themselves for such ludicrous overhead charges versus having most of the money going to the firefighters who really need it for their jobs.

I explained that I would personally give the leftover $20 directly to my local firehouse in the neighborhood and that they should NOT call me ever again.

It is terrible what profits are made off of people who do fundraising over the phone. It's getting so that I now screen all of my calls and if it's anyone of importance they will leave a message if not they won't.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
This isn't an unusual thing though. If you look through several of the major orgs collecting money they post how much goes into their own pocket. Some of them upwards to 90%. Next time you get a request for a donation through the mail look at how much really goes to help and how much goes into their pocket. Some states require the statement come with the request. Just google and find out.
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:07 AM   #101
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Yeah, me too. I have a soft place for street performers having come from there myself. I'd toss a fiver in his hat without hesitation.
I too will give to street performers. At least you get something for your donation in the way of some usually well played music.

Most of the other panhandlers aren't doing it for food or gas but for their next fix for their addiction of choice whether alcohol or drugs.
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:27 AM   #102
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I too will give to street performers. At least you get something for your donation in the way of some usually well played music.

Most of the other panhandlers aren't doing it for food or gas but for their next fix for their addiction of choice whether alcohol or drugs.
I grew up in a little college town in eastern NC, and I clearly remember an old guy that would walk the streets around the bars downtown on the weekends with a basket full of small brown paper bags filled with roasted peanuts for $.75. I would always buy one or two. Entrepreneurial spirit deserves reward. Beggars do not.
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:35 AM   #103
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I don't like it when beggars accost you for money. Like waiting near a drive through or a parking lot.
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:41 AM   #104
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don't tolerate that kind of garbage for one second. they try to work a guilt trip. they find none.
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:06 PM   #105
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As you have noticed that is a large number of people on the streets
with apparent mental health problems. You will also notice that the
larger mental health institutions have either been closed or cut back to very small institutions, in every state.
Yes, and it's so sad. Add to those untreated, unmedicated mentally ill people all the hopeless drunks and burnt-out drug addicts. These people simply can't care for themselves. Mixed in with them are those simply down and out and just can't make it for some reason.

Quote:
In the early 1970's the US Supreme Court declared that a person was entitled to the least restrictive treatment and environment. This started
the closing of the institutions.

The Court felt that even a person that has been declared incompetent,
as long as they were NOT a danger to their self of others, has that right.
I lived in NYC at the time. Some of them were a danger to themselves and others, but no one seemed to care. They would eat rotten garbage from the waste containers on the streets, and dumpsters behind stores. They'd be found dead in alleyways, sometimes frozen in winter. Very very sad.

Quote:
The justice scales always go back and forth until it finds a center-point.
The scales have now tipped way in favor of not treating those that
want to refuse treatment, but can not comprehend what treatment does.
I wish something was done about those unable to care for themselves and have to live in cartons and tents and under bridges as they often do here in TN but it doesn't look like that will ever happen.
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:12 PM   #106
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One of the problems is hat some are homeless by bad circumstances or poor decisions.

Others CHOOSE to be homeless.

Hard to tell which is which.
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:23 PM   #107
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thank you for your post RanCarr. You hit the nail on the head. citing old me's post. emptying the mega mental facilities resulted in those people now being housed in our jails and prisons. very complex issue. telling someone to go and get a job is ignorant and insensitive.
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:47 PM   #108
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their no better then anyone else. others have to work. love smiths sign by the garden. America would be much better off with that philosophy. . if the incentive is there they'll find a way. hand it to them they will never feel it. they need to be made to feel it.
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:26 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by laj View Post
their no better then anyone else. others have to work. love smiths sign by the garden. America would be much better off with that philosophy. . if the incentive is there they'll find a way. hand it to them they will never feel it. they need to be made to feel it.

There is an old saying: "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, TEACH him to to fish, feed him for life." Of course, this only applies if people stop giving him free fish.

Harsh as it seems, laj has made a really valid point. There are generations of people who know no other way to survive than to take handouts, because that's how THEIR parents survived. And there are folks who profit (monitarily, politically, etc) from their bondage. It really is a form of slavery, if you ask me.
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:16 AM   #110
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one more try

I'lll try once more, I figure if I release just one from ignorance, it would be worth it:

To use an oversimplified analogy, If one has a compound fracture of the leg, it is plain for all to see, i.e. there is a bone or two sticking out. However, if one has a mental disease, it is quite often not obvious to the casual observer, and sometimes with little to no resources available. these folks are left to fend and medicate themselves with whatever is available. Alcohol and street drugs etc.

Of Course, when you see someone panhandling, it is difficult to tell the slackers from those who truly are lost, however, simply dismissing them as those who should just go and get a job is incredibly ignorant and insensitive. Going back to my original analogy, would you tell the guy with the broken leg to get up and get back to work?

Most of us at IRV2 are older and wiser, and have the good fortune of disposable income to throw at these money pits we call RV's
Personally, I have had the good fortune of earning every penny through physical labor, and still pop out of bed like a piece of toast in the morning, yet to expect that through hard work and determination one can overcome mental illness is.. well, crazy.

There are tens of thousands who live on the streets that drift in and out of reality, and thinking that not giving them money will some how force them to become self sufficient is asinine.

I work in Los Angeles, and see people on off-ramps, street corners etc. that are totally gaming the system. Its very frustrating. I never give hand outs.

And still, the charity I do give to, not only gives shelter and the physical and mental care they need, but teaches them a real skill, and in spite of it all, thy have a very low long term success rate...why?

Those of you who have had to deal with mental illness, understand just that; it is an illness. they cannot help themselves.

Obviously you wouldn't, then why would you expect someone to function at a job when they are not mentally capable of doing so?
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Old 10-13-2013, 06:54 AM   #111
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In the interest of civility, I'll ignore the off-handed insults, and try to clarify my position. We actually agree on quite a bit of this. I was talking not so much about panhandlers as society in general, which is OT for this thread, so I apologize for that.

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I'lll try once more, I figure if I release just one from ignorance, it would be worth it:

To use an oversimplified analogy, If one has a compound fracture of the leg, it is plain for all to see, i.e. there is a bone or two sticking out. However, if one has a mental disease, it is quite often not obvious to the casual observer, and sometimes with little to no resources available. these folks are left to fend and medicate themselves with whatever is available. Alcohol and street drugs etc.

Of Course, when you see someone panhandling, it is difficult to tell the slackers from those who truly are lost, however, simply dismissing them as those who should just go and get a job is incredibly ignorant and insensitive. Going back to my original analogy, would you tell the guy with the broken leg to get up and get back to work?
Eventually, yes. Broken leg guy needs to go back to work. And if he came from the 'work for a living' group, HE WANTS to. And he might be in a situation where he needs to do some sit-down job in the interim while he heals.

Society absolutely needs a safety net for those 'lost' people you are talking about. And nothing I have said in this thread applies to them. I just think many are not as 'lost' as they let on. I mean, if they have the drive and ability to go panhandle, is that not the same drive and ability it takes to do a job?
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...to expect that through hard work and determination one can overcome mental illness is.. well, crazy.
No one has suggested that, except... well... you.

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Originally Posted by fishinful View Post
There are tens of thousands who live on the streets that drift in and out of reality, and thinking that not giving them money will some how force them to become self sufficient is asinine.
I don't think that, and never suggested it. But I also don't think that giving them money will help them, either. All it will do is fund their status-quo. Giving them a blanket will help them. Giving them a $20 and expecting them to go buy a blanket won't.
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I work in Los Angeles, and see people on off-ramps, street corners etc. that are totally gaming the system. Its very frustrating. I never give hand outs.

And still, the charity I do give to, not only gives shelter and the physical and mental care they need, but teaches them a real skill, and in spite of it all, thy have a very low long term success rate...why?
In Hawaii, a typical welfare recipient pulls down $36k/yr. What incentive do they have to get off the streets and work at WalMart for $10/hr. In my state, NC, that same welfare recipient gets more per year than an entry level teacher does. What incentive to these people have to enter the workforce?

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Originally Posted by fishinful View Post
Those of you who have had to deal with mental illness, understand just that; it is an illness. they cannot help themselves.

Obviously you wouldn't, then why would you expect someone to function at a job when they are not mentally capable of doing so?
Again, we agree on a lot of what you said, off-handed and unnecessary insults aside. No one expects mentally ill and disabled people to be able to become self sufficient, and we need a safety net for those people. The rest can go get a job.
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:47 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinful View Post
I'lll try once more, I figure if I release just one from ignorance, it would be worth it:

To use an oversimplified analogy, If one has a compound fracture of the leg, it is plain for all to see, i.e. there is a bone or two sticking out. However, if one has a mental disease, it is quite often not obvious to the casual observer, and sometimes with little to no resources available. these folks are left to fend and medicate themselves with whatever is available. Alcohol and street drugs etc.

Of Course, when you see someone panhandling, it is difficult to tell the slackers from those who truly are lost, however, simply dismissing them as those who should just go and get a job is incredibly ignorant and insensitive. Going back to my original analogy, would you tell the guy with the broken leg to get up and get back to work?

Most of us at IRV2 are older and wiser, and have the good fortune of disposable income to throw at these money pits we call RV's
Personally, I have had the good fortune of earning every penny through physical labor, and still pop out of bed like a piece of toast in the morning, yet to expect that through hard work and determination one can overcome mental illness is.. well, crazy.

There are tens of thousands who live on the streets that drift in and out of reality, and thinking that not giving them money will some how force them to become self sufficient is asinine.

I work in Los Angeles, and see people on off-ramps, street corners etc. that are totally gaming the system. Its very frustrating. I never give hand outs.

And still, the charity I do give to, not only gives shelter and the physical and mental care they need, but teaches them a real skill, and in spite of it all, thy have a very low long term success rate...why?

Those of you who have had to deal with mental illness, understand just that; it is an illness. they cannot help themselves.

Obviously you wouldn't, then why would you expect someone to function at a job when they are not mentally capable of doing so?

Great post. Very well said. Some still think they suceeded by skill. When actually life is a draw. Some have been more fortunate than others either financially, medically or both.
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