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Old 01-28-2015, 09:06 PM   #15
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" The argument that the same risk was flown before without failure is often
accepted as an argument for the safety of accepting it again. Because
of this, obvious weaknesses are accepted again and again, sometimes
without a sufficiently serious attempt to remedy them"

Excerpted from Dr. Richard Feynman's personal observations of the reliability of the Space Shuttle program, in the wake of the Challenger disaster.



You are using the same logic to justify your unscientific experiments with suspension and steering. People concerned with your safety and the safety of others with whom you share the road are pointing out the obvious bad decisions you are making. Your only response is that nothing bad has happened yet. Eerily familiar.

You want our criticism to be based on knowledge. I challenge you to conduct you experiments based on knowledge instead of anecdotal evidence. Don't kill yourself doing this.
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:16 PM   #16
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Not to mention that the wheels were NOT designed to be reversed when used on a single steering axel, without additional modifications.
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:26 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by PushedAround View Post
Track is measured from outside to outside, but what I was asking was about the width of the wheels themselves. If you did change the offset by 6", that is a tremendous amount and I am surprised that you did not get some serious kickback in the steering under bumps and increased wandering and tramrailling in the highway.
On the highway it was fine but offroad with the camper on it did require extra effort. Mechanically it did not seem to cause any trouble although I would expect some items to wear quicker due to extra effort on them.
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmachine View Post
" The argument that the same risk was flown before without failure is often
accepted as an argument for the safety of accepting it again. Because
of this, obvious weaknesses are accepted again and again, sometimes
without a sufficiently serious attempt to remedy them"

Excerpted from Dr. Richard Feynman's personal observations of the reliability of the Space Shuttle program, in the wake of the Challenger disaster.



You are using the same logic to justify your unscientific experiments with suspension and steering. People concerned with your safety and the safety of others with whom you share the road are pointing out the obvious bad decisions you are making. Your only response is that nothing bad has happened yet. Eerily familiar.

You want our criticism to be based on knowledge. I challenge you to conduct you experiments based on knowledge instead of anecdotal evidence. Don't kill yourself doing this.
I posed the question to get responses and discussion, I have done nothing other than present some experience I have had in the past and if you think I will just go out and do this then that is only your opinion and not my action by a long shot, it is a question, NOT AN ACTION.
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by PushedAround View Post
Track is measured from outside to outside, but what I was asking was about the width of the wheels themselves. If you did change the offset by 6", that is a tremendous amount and I am surprised that you did not get some serious kickback in the steering under bumps and increased wandering and tramrailling in the highway.
Track is measured centre to centre
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:54 PM   #20
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My track width is 2 inches wider on each side due to different rims. What I can tell you is that if everything is perfectly tight, it may seem ok. However having driven a Jeep with wider track width than stock made it twitchy. The owner of the Jeep thought it was fine, but I could tell the steering wanted to dart from one side to the other. if all the suspension is new and tight, you don't feel it pull, because you are able to hold the wheel straight. But if there is any slop, the wheel will want to turn one way or the other, especially as you go over bumps. It changes the leverage the tire has on the steering arms, so bumps tend to make it turn or dart around.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:01 PM   #21
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One could buy what is considered "reverse rim" which is what we did in yhe 70s.

The rim was a deep dish and looked nice and handled a bit better due to the wider track on both axles.

Reversing the stock wheel would likely place the wheel too far out and besides funny loading on all hub parts the wheel may be too close to the fender and it could hit.

A reverse wheel or something with a shifted ofset may work but finding a rim that meets the loading requirements may be tough.

Last option is one of those "Cal Custom" things...they sold spacers that went between hub and wheel to allow wider tires maybe or some other goofy reason.

But only about 1/2 inch to be gained there but stress on the lugs may not allow that.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:10 PM   #22
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One could buy what is considered "reverse rim" which is what we did in yhe 70s.

The rim was a deep dish and looked nice and handled a bit better due to the wider track on both axles.

Reversing the stock wheel would likely place the wheel too far out and besides funny loading on all hub parts the wheel may be too close to the fender and it could hit.

A reverse wheel or something with a shifted ofset may work but finding a rim that meets the loading requirements may be tough.

Last option is one of those "Cal Custom" things...they sold spacers that went between hub and wheel to allow wider tires maybe or some other goofy reason.

But only about 1/2 inch to be gained there but stress on the lugs may not allow that.
Just turning the dual rim around does not change the lug load, it changes the spring load due to the extended leverage applied. It also reverses the bearing load and may up the load a very small amount due to geometry. I am a retired ME and fully understand loads and leverage etc and am taking a a very critical look at this and posing the question. AT no time have I said I am doing this but rather looking at it as a possible means of increasing MH stability on the front end........ remember the now banned 3 wheel bikes, now replace by quads. It was that narrow, one front wheel, design that made them so tippy in a turn.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:56 PM   #23
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I agree it would change the track by 12+ inches. Basically the same as dual wheel spacing. My rim offset is 6.44 inches for each wheel. (Dual spacing is 12.88 inches). From the diagram you can see it would change the geometry of the front wheels quite a bit. In the diagram, the left normally mounted wheel, tire and rim would be basically centered over the hub. When mounted in the right side it would provide your offset but the handling for a motorhome would be significantly different than a "mudder" pickup..
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:11 PM   #24
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I agree it would change the track by 12+ inches. Basically the same as dual wheel spacing. My rim offset is 6.44 inches for each wheel. (Dual spacing is 12.88 inches). From the diagram you can see it would change the geometry of the front wheels quite a bit. In the diagram, the left normally mounted wheel, tire and rim would be basically centered over the hub. When mounted in the right side it would provide your offset but the handling for a motorhome would be significantly different than a "mudder" pickup..
I agree it would be significantly different than a mudder 1 ton truck but I wonder if it is possible to do. What would be required to correct possible problems. As mohomes don't normally go "offroad" that would not be the problem but what problems might arise from increasing the front track by 24 inches as per your diagram above. It is something I have questioned for some time. Why the narrow configuration other than it was meant for a truck and not a mohome with a much wider front body. I need to find some drawings of the front steering and suspension for one of these rigs to properly ascertain the load changes. I may measure my unit and spend a camping trip pondering the problem. Love to think on these things.
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:45 AM   #25
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If you look at the geometry it does not increase the bearing load but reverses the direction...
Actually, it does both.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:20 AM   #26
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To begin, I'm not an engineer nor a suspension expert. My experience is in construction and common sense, so... there's that.

It seems to me that the angle of the weight distribution on the wider track in relation to the hub and bearings would be the most detrimental change. A load that's relatively perpendicular to the centerline of the hub/bearings would be more stable and easier to carry than the same load carried 6-12" offset from that relatively perpendicular line - especially when you consider the fact that that's how the loads were designed to be carried.

Imagine lifting a 50lb weight that's sitting right in front of your toes. Not too hard. Now try lifting it from 12" in front of your toes. The stresses of lifting that much weight so far offset from your body's centerline aren't that much different from what you'd be asking of your motorhome's hubs and bearings.

I also suspect that your motorhome weighs a great deal more than your old 1-ton, and while the reversed rims might have been within the durable tolerances of the truck's hubs and bearings, I seriously doubt the same could be said of your motorhome's front-end under so much more weight.

I love the idea, but you couldn't pay me enough money to run it down the freeway at speed with my family inside.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:25 AM   #27
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I posed the question to get responses and discussion, I have done nothing other than present some experience I have had in the past and if you think I will just go out and do this then that is only your opinion and not my action by a long shot, it is a question, NOT AN ACTION.

OK. Nice troll. Moving on...
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Old 01-29-2015, 05:12 AM   #28
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I do not think you will notice any improvement in stability.

I do think the wheels will hit the fenders when you try to turn

So that makes it not recommended,, Modifying the fenders will put you over width and make your vehicle illegal on all roads.
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