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Old 11-09-2017, 09:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winemaker2 View Post
Note...
8Ds are not true deep cycle no matter what the label says...not like GC2s.
If a batty is rated w CA \ CCA it is a starting batty or dual purpose... Read not the best for either starting or deep cycle but a poor compromise.

GC2s are a real deep cycle house batty - 8Ds would make a fine starting batty

See Batty Comparison post #5
Interesting comment about 8D. I've always considered these to be true deep cycle 8D's:

GPL-8DL - Lifeline Batteries

Fullriver Battery DC260-12 Product Information

https://www.altestore.com/store/deep...battery-p9836/

http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-conte...es/12HHG8D.pdf

I'll stop with these examples. And not trying to be a PITA about our comment, but hoping you can add more info to your statement that 8D's are not Deep Cycle. Many thousand's of coaches are running down the road with 2 all the way up to 10 (Heck, probably more. And in the boating community, probably more so.) 8d 12V Deep Cycle Wet/GEL/AGM batteries. What are we missing? (I replaced two 8D Deka Deep Cycle Wet 12V's, with X's 4 Lifeline AGM L16's. Had to do this early, as the previous owner had not properly maintained the Deka's in the 2 1/2 years before I purchased the coach.)

And in our previous coach, I had two Trojan T-125's 6V for house, as the T-145's were too tall - so sure understand the robustness of conventional GC2 (Trojan T-105's) Wet Cells - and not knocking them, or other brands, when asking for more info on how come 8D's are not true deep cycle?

TIA, and best,
Smitty
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
Interesting comment about 8D. I've always considered these to be true deep cycle 8D's:

TIA, and best,
Smitty
Smitty - Fair comments - so I don't take any offense - my only question is did you read the reference / linked comparison? Most of the answers are covered there.

I base my comments on what RC of Compass Marine reports. I was also only referring to FLA batt'ys as this thread was primarily about 12V vs 6V installations and I didn't want to get into the FLA vs AGM vs Gel debate. I have read many opinions but have not reached an informed opinion other than to say I believe there are excellent AGM and Gel batt'ys out there but the premium price will make them non-competitive even when one considers the improved longevity... (That's an opinion and I'l be the first to admit it based on limited data & analysis). I actually have 3 8D AGMs in my boat but have made that choice based on the lower self-discharge rate and my need to leave them in over winter storage... and willingness to pay extra for that feature.
I have read and follow many of RC's articles, have purchased equipment from him and he has provided help w/ a rework of my marine charging system. I trust his claims and have never seen anything reported that he has not done extensive research and testing to back up his claims. Granted his experience is marine but I do believe that is an excellent comparison to our MH / RV application.

His article clearly states it applies to FLA batty's only - he does make a few comments about AGM & Gel but that is not the primary focus of the article.

He also states that your example of the Rolls 8D is one of only two (the other being Dyno) exceptions he cites to his generalized statement concerning 4D & 8Ds.
The Trojan, Full River and Lifeline you mention are AGM and not a good direct comparison to FLA and he does make a few comments re: AGM & Gel but they were not included in his in depth investigation and testing.

Below are a few excerpts I found that support the comments I made...

NOTE: This article deals with FLOODED marine batteries, not AGM or GEL!

When I began doing actual 20 hour testing about 17-18 years ago my set up was crude but it worked ok. I quickly began to see a sharp differentiation between how 12V Group 24, 27, 31, 4D & 8D batteries were holding up when compared to industrial use deep cycle batteries such as golf cart, L16's J305's etc.. As time moved on I invested more money into better capacity testing & charging equipment to get much more repeatable and more accurate capacity data. My test stations even include temp controlled water-baths so battery temp is not a factor.

Group 24, 27 & 31 & most *4D & *8D flooded 12V "Marine Batteries" are NOT really a deep-cycle battery when compared to a battery specifically designed from the ground up as a "deep cycle" battery. Simple stuff. There are 6V and 12V batteries that are much better suited to cycling duty than Group 24, 27, 31 etc. batteries. If you have the height to fit 6V or 12V golf car, sweeper scrubber or industrial batteries you certainly can get a lot more for your money in terms of cycle life.

If the battery does not have a 20 hour Ampere Hour rating it is generally best to simply walk away, or find out who actually made the battery...
Worse yet is that some Group 24, 27 31 etc. batteries have their 20 hour rating "calculated" from reserve minute or reserve capacity testing.

Below is the answer one of the largest US battery makers gave to me when I asked this very pointed *question. (*Source email string between Marine How To and battery manufacturer testing engineer.)
Question asked by Marine How To.com:
"If the GC2, GC-12 or L16's were cycled using the same cycle life testing as the 12V Group 24, 27, 31 etc. what would that outcome, in cycle life, actually look like? Is it fair to suggest a GC2, GC12 or L16 battery has double to triple the lab cycle life, to 50% DOD, than the 12V 24, 27 & 31 etc. "deep cycles" do?"
Senior Battery Engineer - Major US Battery Manufacturer:
"Yes, for packs of equivalent energy content (voltage * capacity) the Golf Car types and L16's are 2-3 times better than the DC automotive sizes (24, 27 and 31)."

The rate of internal failures I see in marine batteries is highest in 4D & 8D then group 24, 27 & 31 flooded batteries. AGM & GEL much less so but it happens

For example I have seen many marine batteries that are actually 4D or 8D starting batteries labeled as either deep cycle or dual purpose. I have also seen 4D & 8D dual purpose batteries labeled as deep cycle. West Marine is at least honest in their labeling of the Deka / East Penn 4D & 8D flooded batteries and they call them Dual Purpose.

Here is a good hint, there are only two companies I know of building a true "deep cycle" 4D or 8D flooded batteries and those are hand made by Dyno Battery up in Washington state & Rolls in Nova Scotia Canada.. Any other flooded 4D or 8D, no matter what the sticker says, is not a true deep cycle battery. Just because they are big and heavy, don't be fooled by the sticker unless you pay the premium for a Dyno or a Rolls..



So bottom line - if you are using Rolls or one of the other AGM 8Ds you mention I'd say you have made a good choice, however, I would also add I'd be willing to bet none of those can beat out a quality FLA GC battery when compared on a $/AH/Life Cycle basis.
If money is no object there are all kinds of good choices available.

Edit: I did look briefly at the approx cost of several of the 8Ds you mentioned and find most are in the $700 - $850 range or are marked special order / call for quote.
I find it hard to imagine these competing with 2 - 4 GC2 batteries at around $85 ea. for a comparable or higher AH capacity bank.
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:06 PM   #17
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Thanks for the welcome MSHappyCampers. Also thanks to everyone who commented on my question. A lot of great knowledge here that I will seriously take into consideration.
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:50 PM   #18
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Don - Great response as to you were referring to FLA vs say GEL/AGM when commenting that 8D's are not true deep cycle. And for sure, a good caution, as I've seen many marine 8D's being installed as 'Deep Cycle' for RV house duty.

And enough threads on this forum on the virtues between cost effectiveness between wet vs gel vs agm - so no reason to start another!

Thanks for clarifying the LFA vs other... And yeah, you still can find true 8D Deep Cycle Wet batteries. But your caution to the OP was pertinent!

Best,
Smitty

And note: I did spend the coin for X's 4 L16 Lifeline's, but I also wanted faster charging times, as well as lower discharge. I upsized my bank to about double the capacity of AH's I needed, so I live off the top 25-30% of SOC. Hoping this extends the life on these.... Sure, multiple sets of FLA/Wet would have been more economical, and got the job done well. But, it's just how I approached it. Will go with Lithium when this bank is shot! (Yep, another who conversation!)
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Old 11-10-2017, 04:02 PM   #19
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Smitty
I have 8 FLA GC2s I the MH now but honestly wonder what to do when the time comes to replace. I do like the convenience of my AGMs in the boat and will certainly consider them for MH... so wouldn't criticise anyone yhat chooses that route.
I have seen many...many questions on 12V vs 6V (FLA) and do think thats an easy answer unless they consider selective 12Vs NOT the typical RV/marine "deep cycle"
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