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Old 11-12-2003, 09:34 AM   #29
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This is in my post on page one of this thread:

"One of the articles claimed Mobil 1 had changed over to the same scam but according to the MSDS, and from a call I made to their tech line, they are still real synthetic synthetic, as opposed to calling a petroleum base oil a synthetic.

I figured they would be since they sued Castrol to keep the distinction real for us consumers and for their business."

Just goes to show that even being careful I can leave off a sentence that I know, but forgot to finish.


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Old 11-12-2003, 07:56 PM   #30
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In the previous I mentioned that the prices for mineral synthetics are rip offs. If they cost less than 50% of the cost of real PAO base stocks, then they should be less than half the price retail.

But I neglected to say that I think the PAO synthetics are also priced far above any reasonable profit margin.

On to the next set of questions that occur to me in the progress of this thread.

I have found that there are only 17 manufacturers of PAO base stock. But nowhere do I find a reference to Amsoil being one of them. In Amsoil's history on their corporate website, they refer to the originator of the idea, an AF pilot, who came up with the first synthetic, and founded the company from a small warehouse and group of sales reps. I am retired Air Force and that part I like!

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't see where he owned any refineries. By the way, the PAO true synthetics are still manufactured from petroleum distillates and by products, (or mineral, or dino, whatever you want to call them.) So you need a refinery.

Does Amsoil make any components of their own products? On their website they list warehouses, and bottling facilities, but nowhere do I see one refinery, or catalyst plant. They may have them, but if so, are doing a great job of hiding them.

Funny, I don't see any refineries listed for Royal Purple or Red Line either?

It seems to be a big secret, who actually makes PAO base stocks. If you want into the "synthetic club," it costs here just $14,500 bucks to get a report that names all 17 manufacturers of PAO base oils, and gives a profile of each. Is Amsoil on that list? I don't know, but am working on finding out, without paying $14k to know.
http://www.mindbranch.com/listing/pr...R379-0040.html

This report is a relative bargain at $2650.00 for the information.
http://www.buscom.com/chem/C179.html

Amsoil doesn't manufacture and is not API certified??

"1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. "

Amsoil here makes it clear that they buy from different vendors, and that they may or may not even blend their own additives aside from bottling the end product. In other words, Amsoil doesn't make anything in their products. So, assuming that is the case with the other "bottlers" what might be the difference from one or another like Royal Purple, Red Line, or Amsoil? But what are they really saying? Could it be that they can't maintain the same quality levels of anything from one vendor to another? When they say that they " would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs," isn't that the same as saying that they now can change their formulas without any testing at all????? Hellooooooooooo!

So to use their products, we pay a lot more, believing we are getting a superior product, but instead come to find out that they change their vendors often with no testing, exceed API standards for maximum phosphorous, and call no testing of new vendor products and quality "major improvements????"

Imaginary conference at a synthetic bottler company- "Let's see, lubrizol has a dispersant on clearance this month guys, lets buy it and use it as an improvement! Yeah, that's the ticket!"

Sounds amazingly like the tongue in cheek computer programmer's reference to glitches as "undocumented features!" Except that they aren't kidding!

The current requirement for phosphorous levels is less than .10%. Amsoil on the same page goes to great lengths to disagree with that requirement. Funny, Mobil 1 is API licensed isn't it? It is a proven PAO true synthetic too. What is Amsoil's problem? The other synthetics are API licensed right? Here is their bottom line on their not being able to achieve API certification, aside from talking about the pricing for the tests to get licensed, just like everybody else has to do.

"AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed."

They go to great lengths to explain that high level away as a benefit for longer protection, and claim NOAK tests are not being taken into consideration.

The bard said it best twice. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." And ""Something is rotten in the state of Denmark."

Both Amsoil quotes above are from the following web page:
http://www.performanceoiltechnology....ilicensing.htm

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark," is from "Hamlet." Act I, Scene 4:
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks," again Hamlet. (Just kidding, sources named)

Now please, I am not Amsoil bashing here. The point is that it is clear they don't make their own base stock, and in all likelihood, few if any of their additives. I don't have any proof here, and only single out Amsoil because of the prominence of their advertising. With all of its careful wording and contradictions.

The whole point is that it all appears to be a big secret. Do all PAO synthetic name brands order base stock and additives from the lowest bidder that quarter? Do they all order the same basic things and perhaps just change the dyes?

So my question is directed to all the synthetic brands. I don't say manufacturers here intentionally, because the more I look, the more they look like just bottling companies, except Exxon Mobil, who we already know makes all of their own stuff. Could Amsoil, Red Line, and Royal Purple be just Mobil 1 with a few minor differences? Or dyes?

Here is Exxon Mobil's web page to the industry advertising their PAO base stocks and other additive products for them.
http://www.prod.exxonmobil.com/scite...synthetic.html

Now why is it so hard to find out who actually makes the base oils and additives for these supposedly great products? Why don't they post their MSDS' online instead of asking us to request them by mail. And why is the MSDS then so lacking in information? The Mineral synthetics MSDS' are online. Mobil 1 is too.

What the heck is everybody in this industry hiding?

I am not asking for their formula. Just like Coca cola, the nominal ingredients.

Here's a great website with links to all the oil and lubricant industry. Notice that you have to be a member at all of them to get any info?
http://www.lubrizol.com/IndustryRela...es/default.asp

If you think I am proposing some big conspiracy theory, no way! But the Bard's quotes do apply.

Caveat Emptor does too.


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Old 11-13-2003, 05:39 PM   #31
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RustyJC:
Regarding the breakdown of base stocks, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. If base stocks don't break down or change chemically, why do we measure parameters such as oxidation, nitration and viscosity in crankcase lubricating oil analysis?

Rusty<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to agree with Rusty. I have been in industrial maintenace for Almost 23 years now. Oil reguardless of base stocks can and will break down. Believe me industry would not spend the money of frequent oil analysis if oil break down was not a concern. The big causes of oil break down are excessive heat, oxidation, nitration and ineffective filtration.

Lets take auto transmissions, Above 240 F the fluid starts breaking down and its useful life is diminished and the higher the temperature goes the shorter the life of the transmission fluid. That leads to many transmission failures in RV tow vehicales.

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Old 11-13-2003, 08:53 PM   #32
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Dave,
If the actual temp of the transmission is 240, no problems occur. That assumes that the temp sensor is on the hot side, or reading directly from the transmission. If you have a sensor placed after the oil cooler, then a temp of 240 could mean temps in excess of 300 degrees in the tranny, where the metal parts of the tranny begin to warp, and the plastic parts melt. Normal tranny fluid is good to just above 300 degrees F actual.

Now let me make myself clear one more time. No engine or tranny will exceed the normal operating temps at each end of the scale if the systems are in good operating condition, and the driver is somewhat aware of the operating parameters of the equipment.

I never said that mineral oil will not burn up or boil. Dave did you bother to go to the MSDS' I provided in the first posts and compare the boiling points and flash points of both the synthetic oils and the mineral oils? Aparently not because there were syntetics that had lower boil and flash points than the minerla oils. And vice versa.

But since you like tranny temps, here is an authoritative article about just that subject, let me know what you think.

Some important data from a typical ATF MSDS.
ATF has a flash point of 352 F degrees, and a boiling point of 475 degrees F in this example.
Go here, page 7:
http://www.ac-rerefined.com/acatf_msds.pdf
Other MSDS' list the boiling point, some don't, and all list the flash point at 350-400 degrees F.

We know that above 300 degrees the transmission parts can begin to warp, but not necessarily immediately, and that some folks have operated their trannys at that temp many times and their tranny still works.

The magic number then to stay below if at all possible is 300 degrees F, 250 even better. And that should be very possible. To monitor the temp you need an accurate gauge, not just an idiot light, and you need the sensor for the gauge measuring the temp just as it exits the tranny or internally to know the real temp it has reached.

So you have a gauge but you don't know if it was installed on the hot side or the cool side. You need to find that out because a reading of 250 degrees F on the cool side could be a much higher temp in the tranny.

Now here is the part all of us with Automatic trannys need to know. Even if you hit 300 degrees momentarily, you haven't necessarily trashed the tranny.

I have repeatedly mentioned that the trannys in light duty trucks are the "weak point," even the new Allison. What I mean by that is that it needs more attention depending on stresses than the rest of the driveline components because of its different demands. All manufacturers provide a regular maintenance schedule and a severe duty schedule including one for the ATF being changed. But that schedule is not relevant to high stress loads like we put on our motorhome and tow vehicles daily at all! They are usually assuming with trucks that they are not at max load daily as many of ours are.

Being an old time mechanic and knowing when it looks wrong or smells burnt is too late, damage may have already been done.

Having only an idiot light and assuming it is alright unless it comes on won't help either.

Hitting 350 degrees momentarily for 10 miles also doesn't necessarily mean your tranny is now damaged either! Although I don't ever want to test that with my truck!

To make an automatic tranny last "forever" you need the proper change intervals for the temps it has reached and is operated at normally which requires a gauge to know the hot side. AND you need a good rule of thumb to go by to change the fluid before it completely breaks down. Here, from an oft copied and published article in the industry by the manufacturers of ATF, are excellent guidelins, proven over time.


"As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating temperature above 175 degrees F. cuts the life of the fluid in half. The approximate life expectancy at various temperatures is as follows:
175F 100,000 miles
195F 50,000 miles
212F 25,000 miles
235F 12,000 miles
255F 6,250 miles
275F 3,000 miles
295F 1,500 miles
315F 750 miles
335F 325 miles
375F 80 miles
390F 40 miles
415F Less than 30 minutes"


If you'd like the read the whole article, which I recommend, go here:
http://www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/atfchnges.html

I think you'll find all the answers there.

The trick is to know your temps, and change the fluid accordingly.



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Old 11-13-2003, 09:07 PM   #33
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Since you are interested in tranny temps and flash/boil points, where the damage really occurs to the fluid, but is already too late for the tranny parts, here are some MSDS' from the manufacturers.

In checking the flash points of synthetics and regular ATFs I am finding about the same temps for both types. And both types claim to resist thermal breakdown regardless of the manufacturers. I am not saying they don't, just that the physical properties are so similar in boiling points (when given) and flash points that it would indicate to me that the real benefits of synthetics are when the tranny is cold or when operating in extremely cold temps with it's better flow at lower temps.

Synthetic ATF MSDS'
Mobil 440 F flash point
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...ntheticATF.asp
Amsoil MSDS 432F flash
http://www.lubes-n-filters.com/MSDS/ATF.pdf
Alisyn synthetic ATF 360F flash point
http://www.aerospacelubricants.com/msds/ATF-2.pdf

Reguar ATF MSDS'
Regular ATF 365 F flash
http://www.hess.com/about/msds/ATF-H...xron-16931.pdf
Qaker state regular ATF 415F flash
http://www.malcopro.com/cgi-win/malmsds.exe/1826

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Old 11-17-2003, 04:09 PM   #34
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I have read through all the posts & have a couple of comments.

Remember that the spec sheets do not always list the actual test value. Sometimes it will be the min or max of the spec. It can be very difficult if not impossible to determine what the data really is.

AMSOIL never claims to make their own oil. There are very few companies that do. Almost no car companies make their own cars either (maybe even none). The parts are made by the lowest bidder (ok other things come into play as well but money speaks volumes).

I have tested Castrol GTX 10W30 and 5W30 in my car with several different filter brands. I am testing AMSOIL right now. I was not pressured nor did I really see anything suggesting that I should use some expensive filtering system. AMSOIL recommended that I use their brand filter (which use to be made by Baldwin but is made by Hastings now I think).

My results show that at about 5500 miles the Castrol needs to be changed. This wasn't affected by filter brand. All mileage was highway miles. The car is a 1994 Pontiac Grand Am GT V6 3.1L. It has 125,000 miles now. The tests were started around 88K (I'll have to double check my spreadsheet to make sure of that). I know it was needing changing b/c the TBN was very low (~2).

My 2002 Honda Accord 3.0L V6 VTEC was changed with 9-10K on the AMSOIL oil & had a lot of life left in it. Again AMSOIL brand filter was used.

If you would like the raw data let me know. It's in Excel format.
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Old 11-18-2003, 10:03 AM   #35
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Benjamming,
I'd love it and my email is in my profile. I have Excel as well.
I agree on the test data, and with your comments on the oils and manufacturers. I was only pointing out that the base stocks are spoken but not proven by the disclosures, with that one.
I am sure not Amsoil bashing, Mobil 1 bashing and now even like the idea of the group II/III oils. The prices can come down a lot lower on the last.

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Old 11-25-2003, 08:40 PM   #36
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Benjamming, AMSOIL DOES make their own synthetic lubes. They have been for 30 years. Since their main source of sales is through dealers, they make their own and quality control is of the utmost importance. One messup and a lot of dealers are toast. The products are made in Superior, WI. I've been a dealer since 1981 and haven't lost one ounce of zeal for the products. Our full flow filters are made by a third party to our own specifications. Our bypass filters are made inhouse. I wish I could say something to all the posters who believe so deeply that it's impossible to use extended drains without problems. My son got his first car right after I started selling AMSOIL in 1981 and has never known a 3,000-5,000 mile oil change. It's always been 25,000 miles or one year whichever comes first, with a full flow filter change at 12,500 miles or six months, whichever comes first. I do the same thing with my own vehicles. Sorry for such a long message, but extended drains can be done and Oil analysis can prove it. Synluberocks!!!
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Old 11-27-2003, 07:33 PM   #37
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Synluberocks,
Welcome to irv2! This is a hot topic and there are a lot of folks that have learned a lot from it, not the least of them I.

I think you may be mistaken about Amsoil "manufacturing" their base oils and additives. Here is a quote from an Amsoil website:

The owner, Al Amatuzio (hence the name "AMSOIL"), a jet fighter pilot, recognized synthetic's ability to stand up to the demanding operating conditions and temperature extremes jet engines encounter. He realized that cars, trucks and other internal combustion engines could benefit from the same protection that synthetic lubricants provided to the engines of the jets he flew. Al Amatuzio started the company in his home, with his garage as the warehouse. Today, AMSOIL operates 100,000 square feet of one of the most modern, clean, well-equipped and well-engineered lubricant blending and packaging plants in the country."

That site is here:
http://www.xl7500.com/history%20amsoil.htm

OK, what does "lubricant blending and packaging mean to you?" To me, since I know, and have provided the links which I think you missed, to prove that they buy their base stocks and additives from vendors, it means they do not manufacture anything but their blending of other's ingredients.

When they state the origin of the company they said that "Al Amatuzio started the company in his home, with his garage as the warehouse."

Are you saying that Al had a hydrocracking refinery in his home or garage? Are you aware that all PAO base oils are refined from petroleum by products? But even if you think that there is some way to manufacture a quality base oil in a house or garage, please show me a link or a picture of any BASE OIL refining/manufacturing facility owned or operated by Amsoil.

Just one is enough. Not a blending facility of what they buy from others, not a bottling facility, nor a lab that checks the blend of other people's products that they select and bottle and blend for quality.

I had my links and posted them, and ask for no less from you. Where are the links to back up that they manufacture their own base oils and additives?

If we can proceed with facts, we can come to conclusions. Preferences are a whole different thing.

So please, if I missed something, help me out with more than an "I said so." If I missed something I will gladly accept your factual research with source links to back it up. Persons and phone numbers are good too.

A good number for Amsoil HQ to ask if they manufacture their own base oil stock is:
Amsoil Corporate Headquarters and Technical Service Staff: (715) 392-7101. Please post back the name and extension of anybody that claims they manufacture their own base oils or additives, I'll call them back, and be happy to correct my mistake if I made one.

Synluberocks, not only did I state that extended oil drain intervals are possible, but that they may be possible with mineral oil and testing/analysis as well. Of course with the same filtration too.

But why? My 92 Cummins 1 ton diesel dually uses 12 qt. of Rotella T oil (@$6.50 a gallon) and a 3 dollar filter every 6k miles. That exactly $22.50. It has 220k miles on it now and runs like new. I could put on additional filtration and do oil analysis at 20 bucks a pop too and extend the intervals using Rotella too. But why?

The idea of all the expense in filtration, analysis, etc is to keep the contaminants out of the oil that are building up, especially the soot in a diesel, with any oil of any type at any price. I throw them all out at 6k. You leave them in the system for another 19k miles. For a 25k mile oil change cycle I would change oil four times, once to start the cycle and once at the end of the cycle, twice in between. A total of exactly 90 dollars.

You would use three gallons of Amsoil and a filter at the start of the cycle, change the filter in the middle of the cycle, and change the oil and filter at the end of the cycle. Total is six gallons of Amsoil, and three of your filters.

Please post back the exact cost for the above Amsoil diesel oil and filters. I have been told that Amsoil is $24.00 a gallon for my truck, but I have no idea if that is accurate or not. If that is true, just the oil will cost $144.00 for the 25k-mile comparison cycle. All we need to complete it is the price for the three full flow filters you mentioned exactly.

But that isn't all is it? The tests to determine that all is OK? How many oil analysis tests at about $20.00 a pop do you need for that 25k cycle? None? If that is the case why all the mention of them? One test? Two? Three? What is safe for 25k miles?

Do I need filters that last twice as long as my cheap filter? Nope, mine doesn't have to last that long; it only has to do its job for 6k miles. If I tried to use that cheap filter to extend my intervals it would probably fail before 10k miles!!! No problemo! It gets trashed, all three dollars worth of it, at 6k miles, with all the junk it has accumulated along the way.

The claims of superior protection had some validity to me until I learned that the additives, which deplete with time and use in any type of oil are the real protectants in our oils, and found that our mineral oils with the current Group II and III quality base oils is at least as good as the full synthetic PAOs by the testing and certifying agencies thee SAE and the API. And Amsoil has not met the certification of those agencies for all their products!

The research and chemistry as a result of testing Mobil 1 a full PAO synthetic, against the group II and III mineral base oils finds no measurable difference. That link which you may have missed is on page three of this thread. Here it is again:
http://www.heavydutytrucking.com/2001/07/052a0107.asp

It is an important article in that Chevron and other mineral oil group II/III synthetic manufacturers are contesting the claims of Exxon Mobil for their PAO full synthetic Mobil 1.

It is interesting to note the absence of Amsoil and the other synthetic brands in the discussions and laboratory proofs offered in the debate of the two camps, PAO base stock like Amsoil and Mobil 1 use, and Group II/III that the rest of the industry labels as synthetic.

It is also very important to note the fact that in diesels, which are hydrodynamically lubricated, that the slipperiness of the oil is not a factor in mileage gains as there are none attributable to use of synthetic in a diesel. Any diesel. The weight of the oil makes any mileage difference as you saw in the article above clearly.

I totally agree that 30 years ago with only group 1 base oils or Amsoil to choose from, Amsoil offered some benefits that group 1 oils did not, but they still were not repairing engines miraculously, adjusting the valves for them internally, cleaning the injectors and/or sparkplugs magically. They just lubricate until saturated with contaminants, just like the other oils do. And depend on the additives to have their properties. Just like the other oils do. They still depend on the filters to remove some of those contaminants, just like the other oils do.

The rest of the industry is using those additives now, and producing better oil than ever with an additional hydrocracking refining process. With the group II/III petroleum synthetics they claim that the additional refining process makes the molecules different than they occur in nature therefore are legally synthetics. I thought that was a sham at first, but since the PAO base oils are synthetic by virtue of being different than crude oil as it comes out of the ground too, I now have no problem with that.

Amsoil is also a "DINO" product. It is made from petroleum by products as are most of its additive components. The Poly Alpha Olefin (PAO) Group IV it uses for base oil is merely more highly refined petroleum waxes etc -all from petroleum. Did you miss the links earlier in the thread from two refiners offering their PAO Group IV base stocks to the industry?

They do flow much better at extreme low temperatures, below zero. And should be used in those conditions I agree there too.

As far as higher temperature tolerances, did you miss the links to the MSDS' for both synthetic and full petroleum products showing their respective flash/boil points and that some synthetics had lower flash points than "Dino" and the spread of actual high temp degradation were so close as to be negligible?

No engine in good condition will ever subject the oils to even the flash/boil point temperatures of the least refined oils THAT HAVE BEEN CERTIFIED BY API AND SAE was proven there in the thread too.

I look forward to your response and exact costs for that 25k-oil change cycle using the Amsoil, filters, and analysis.



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Old 11-30-2003, 03:54 PM   #38
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posted Thu November 27 2003 11:33 PM Thu November 27 2003 11:33 PM
Synluberocks,Welcome to irv2! This is a hot topic and there are a lot of folks that have learned a lot from it, not the least of them I."I think you may be mistaken about Amsoil "manufacturing" their base oils and additives. Here is a quote from an Amsoil website:"
SLR: Whoa. Hold on Mr. Roadie. I'm just a simple man trying to make a living. I never meant to insinuate we were a Shell, Amoco, etc., and I never considered anyone would have a refining/manufacturing plant in their backyard or garage. I meant that we blended and packaged our own lubricants rather than have someone else do it for us. Around here we have Meijer Thrifty Acres, KMart and Walmart, all of which have oils on their shelves with their own name on them. I'm pretty sure they didn't make them either.

RVRoadie: "Synluberocks, not only did I state that extended oil drain intervals are possible, but that they may be possible with mineral oil and testing/analysis as well. Of course with the same filtration too.But why? My 92 Cummins 1 ton diesel dually uses 12 qt. of Rotella T oil (@$6.50 a gallon) and a 3 dollar filter every 6k miles. That exactly $22.50. It has 220k miles on it now and runs like new. I could put on additional filtration and do oil analysis at 20 bucks a pop too and extend the intervals using Rotella too. But why?"

SLR Answer #1: I have a customer with a 2001 Ford F250 Powerstroke diesel who has used oil analysis and has over 60,000 miles on this crankcase full of oil, and all we've had to do is replace three filters and seven quarts of oil. So far over the 60,000 miles this year we have put in 22 quarts of oil and four full flow filters, for a total of $183.73 for products and four oil analysis at $20/ea for $80. All totaled he has spent $263.73 for his 60,000 miles, and when the oil was checked at 60k (8/03) it was still fit for continued use, so he's still running it. According to him, as of 8/03 he's saved over $180 this year, including the oil sample costs. He had always changed his oil at 3,000 miles. Even if he had changed at 6,000 miles as you do, he would have still saved $90. And now we have a much better understanding of how long the oil will perform satisfactorily so we could just do analysis quarterly to make sure things aren't messing up. I can scan the latest oil analysis feedback for this truck in and create a PDF document and email it to you if it would help.

SLR Answer #2 : How about doing it for the environment? Using your 6,000 mile figures you will be using 30 gallons over the same 60,000 miles Lane has gone and he has only used 5.5 gallons. You would have used 10 oil filters and he has used four. By law I am required to drain oil filters for two days before I can dispose of them. Even at that, they still have residual oil in them.

RVRoadie: "The idea of all the expense in filtration, analysis, etc is to keep the contaminants out of the oil that are building up, especially the soot in a diesel, with any oil of any type at any price. I throw them all out at 6k. You leave them in the system for another 19k miles. For a 25k mile oil change cycle I would change oil four times, once to start the cycle and once at the end of the cycle, twice in between. A total of exactly 90 dollars."

SLR: The 25,000 mile recommendation is for gasoline fueled vehicles only. For diesel engines the recommendation is to start with twice the manufacturer's recommendations and then extend beyond that with oil analysis only.

RV Roadie: The claims of superior protection had some validity to me until I learned that the additives, which deplete with time and use in any type of oil are the real protectants in our oils, and found that our mineral oils with the current Group II and III quality base oils is at least as good as the full synthetic PAOs by the testing and certifying agencies thee SAE and the API. And Amsoil has not met the certification of those agencies for all their products!

SLR: Please let me offer this excerpt from AMSOIL as to API licensing. This is from our Dealer Zone which is password protected. I don't know how to give you a link without giving you and everybody else on this website full access to a password protected area of the AMSOIL website. I can send another message with the full text. Let me know your preference.

Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not

1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.

2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.

RVRoadie: The rest of the industry is using those additives now, and producing better oil than ever with an additional hydrocracking refining process. With the group II/III petroleum synthetics they claim that the additional refining process makes the molecules different than they occur in nature therefore are legally synthetics. I thought that was a sham at first, but since the PAO base oils are synthetic by virtue of being different than crude oil as it comes out of the ground too, I now have no problem with that. Amsoil is also a "DINO" product. It is made from petroleum by products as are most of its additive components. The Poly Alpha Olefin (PAO) Group IV it uses for base oil is merely more highly refined petroleum waxes etc -all from petroleum. Did you miss the links earlier in the thread from two refiners offering their PAO Group IV base stocks to the industry?They do flow much better at extreme low temperatures, below zero. And should be used in those conditions I agree there too.As far as higher temperature tolerances, did you miss the links to the MSDS' for both synthetic and full petroleum products showing their respective flash/boil points and that some synthetics had lower flash points than "Dino" and the spread of actual high temp degradation were so close as to be negligible? No engine in good condition will ever subject the oils to even the flash/boil point temperatures of the least refined oils THAT HAVE BEEN CERTIFIED BY API AND SAE was proven there in the thread too. I look forward to your response and exact costs for that 25k-oil change cycle using the Amsoil, filters, and analysis.

SLR: Here is another page from your link above (http://www.xl7500.com/history%20amsoil.htm). Look for the Top Ten link on that website. Here is an excerpt from #7.

7. AMSOIL uses the best ingredients. With the exception of XL7500 oils, AMSOIL is made from a PAO-ester blend, the best synthetic base stock. PAO is a Group IV synthetic base oil and does not contain any petroleum. It has 100% desirable lubricating molecules. AMSOIL XL-7500 is manufactured from a Group III synthetic base oil. Recently, new ways of treating petroleum base stocks have been developed and a court decision has ruled that these new oils can be marketed as a synthetic. Many of the major oil companies have reformulated their synthetic motor oils by substituting this new Group III base oil. AMSOIL also recently reformulated their XL-7500 line of synthetic motor oils using this new Group III base oil to give customers a choice as to which synthetic oil they prefer. Though AMSOIL's Group IV PAO-based oils remain the best, AMSOIL XL-7500 still offers more than other Group III oils.

When asked if all Group III oils are equal, Alan Amatuzio, AMSOIL's VP of Manufacturing had this to say: "No, as a matter of fact, they are not. One of the problems with Group III base oils is the lack of consistency from one manufacturer to another. While the physical properties may meet performance parameters, the performance characteristics can vary widely. That's because of differences in the crude oil and the different processes used to refine the crude into Group III base stocks . . . AMSOIL has selected the best quality Group III base oils and spiked them with oxidation inhibitors and TBN. They have more gusto than other Group III oils and are fully formulated for 7,500-mile drain intervals."

So, whether you select AMSOIL's Group IV or Group III synthetic oils, you can rest assured you are getting the best synthetic motor oil on the market.

SLR: RVRoadie, in 1981 I, too, was very skeptical of the claims for synthetic lubricants. With all due respect to you and the others on this site, I think you and I could send each other website links until the cows come home and I don't believe you and I are going to convince each other on anything. I apologize for misunderstanding your statement about AMSOIL not ˜making their own oil' and responding as such. I have over 200 steady customers (I do sales and service) and will continue to use their results as my reason for believing in AMSOIL's products. Now I'll back quietly out of here and just lurk for awhile. If you ever change your mind and want to discuss further, do a Google search for Lynnsoil. My email address and phone number are there. Respectfully, Lynn Peterson
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Old 03-12-2006, 03:13 PM   #39
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There are currently three different classes of "Base stocks" to make engine oil from. Mineral based, Highly Refined Mineral oil, and the synthetic based oils.

Mineral oils are formed through decomposition of a variety of organic matter such as fish, sea weed, trees, birds, grass, dinosaurs, etc.

Highly Refined Mineral Oils are just that. They are more refined which involves a variety of seperation, hence a better Base oil to start from, but more costly to produce than petrolium.

Synthetic Base stocks in contrast to petrolium, are built up from one or more specific organic compounds. They are well defined and are comprised of particular molecule types that have been designed for specific performance characteristics. One distinct advantage of synthetics is that they can be "tailor made" to fit the requirements of the application.

There are currently 4 suitable synthetic base lubricants; Polyalphaolefins(PAO's), Synthetic Esters whch include Dibasic Acid Esters (Diesters), Polyol Esters, and Polyalkylene Glycols (PAGs). The most common is the (PAO) Polyalphaolefins.

Of course each have their advantages and disadvantages. This is why the Amsoil Company uses a combination of "Synthetic Base stocks" to get the very best there is to offer. It is more costly, but in the long run, it becomes less expensive, as the oil provides excellent lubricity, improved energy efficiency, high viscosity index, low pour points(as low as -72 F.) excellent thermal and oxidative stability, high flash and fire points, and is fire resistance. And will last longer in use.(longer oil drain intervals)

Here is a very good article about Synthetics.
"When Synthetic Is Not Really Synthetic"

It is amazing how some news travels. Talking to people at car or trade shows over a display of AMSOIL products always involves interesting conversations on a variety of topics. Most questions are along the same lines, addressing cost of using synthetic oil, drainage intervals, and quality. AMSOIL provides a wealth of brochures and technical information, so the answers are readily available.
But over the last six months or so people keep coming up with one particular question: "Is AMSOIL still a real synthetic?" Evidently, the news that more "synthetic" oils are not really synthetic oils is getting around.
In 1999, the National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus ruled in Mobil Oil's challenge that Castrol's "advertisements inaccurately represented that the current formulation of Syntec is synthetic". Mobil's position was "true synthetics had to be formulated from small molecules subject to a chemical reaction, not built from natural petroleum". Castrol uses a "hydroprocessed mineral oil" (a Group III base stock) as the base stock in their Castrol Syntec. Previously, synthetic oil was accepted to mean the base stock was not conventional petroleum oil, regardless of refining process. This ruling changed all that.
The most popular and best performing conventional base stock was formulated with polyalphaolefin (PAO), together with other non-petroleum products, such as ester, to achieve optimum performance and seal swell. This is in essence the base stock used by AMSOIL.
People are more than a little surprised when they hear that many oils now on the market that are labeled as "synthetic" are really conventional oils. They are being advertised and labeled as synthetic oil, but are really specially refined conventional petroleum oil. People ask me how these companies can do that.
I first included in this newsletter over a year ago excerpts from an article in Lubricants World Magazine entitled "A Defining Moment for Synthetics" which reviewed the facts and circumstances around the challenge made by Mobile against Castrol's advertising. In essence, the term "synthetic" was determined to not be a scientific term, but was judged to be a marketing term. The definition of synthetic lubricants was broadened to the use of the term "synthetic" in referring to motor oil that had the ability to provide synthetic performance, but without defining synthetic performance. In other words, beauty is now in the eye of the beholder – but without full disclosure!
Now, as a result of this ruling, many of the labels on motor oils that you see on store shelves that say "synthetic" is not a synthetic (in the classical sense), and could now be what used to be labeled a "synthetic-blend". According to Lubes n' Greases magazine (July 2001), "...most large lubricant producers moved quickly to replace PAO with Group III base stocks in their synthetic [passenger car motor oil] formulations."
How can you tell? Price is one way. Hydrocracked oil, according to Lubes n' Greases magazine, is $1.50 to $2.00 per gallon cheaper, half that of PAO's.
But if it is labeled as a duck, does it walk like a duck?
According to Lubes n' Greases magazine, "PAO has a significant advantage in low-temperature performance. This could prove to be the handhold needed to pull base stock demand out of the [Group III] space and into PAO territory. Market development will be slow, but auto makers specifying the use of 0W-30 and 0W-20 engine oil would drive such a victory. Since PAO may be the only show in town to met the cold-cranking specification for these grades, ultimately this could result in a prize for PAO bigger than the one it lost in its first major battle with Group III."
Beyond the passenger car motor oil market, Lubes n' Greases says PAO still enjoys double-digit growth in many industrial lubricant applications. "Industrial end-users are far less enamored with the term "synthetic" than they are with the track record of success PAO has built handling extreme temperatures and other challenging operating conditions. PAO will continue to do battle with Group III in the industrial segment, but it remains a strong incumbent and is expected to not only hold its ground, but also grow. PAO continues to capture market share in heavy-duty gear oil applications and shows promise as a means to extend drains in heavy-duty diesel engines equipped with exhaust gas recirculation (EGR)."
AMSOIL has proved its value in extended drain intervals and reduced wear testing performed by independent labs, as well as actual field testing. You don't get performance like this out of marketing words. The quality must be in the oil. AMSOIL has it. What kind of marketing terms are you using?

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Old 03-13-2006, 06:17 AM   #40
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Dodge Owner, Welcome to IRV2
When I saw this old post and your name I thought you had an older Dodge MH and you were going to tell us its still running like new.
The only oil I'am using is Mobil-1 cars and MH just because its M-1 product, transm in all are non syn after reading back in these posts wonder if syn is worth the cost.
Well you started with a good topic welcome to the forums and enjoy them. In your sign-profile block you can help us to help you by placing your coach and chassis info in it ,it will follow you on your posts. "007"
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Old 03-13-2006, 08:38 AM   #41
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Dodge Owner:---Good Post. People need to start reading the reports that are available, concerning the use of Engine oils.
Many people still think you can change the oil & Filter In OCT (Dino) and let the RV sit over winter and be ready to go in April/May. Dino oil starts breaking down as soon as you crank the engine to check for leaks. It is broken down in 3 months time.
If you engine has been broken in properly and has passed the 15,000 mile mark, you should think about going to a high grade Synthetic oil.
I have switched to AMSOIL SAE 5W-30W Synthetic Oil (ASL) about $5.05 per quart. I feel very confident using this oil and working on a 6,000 mile /or / 6 months change. The literture says I can go longer.

I have just changed the Transmission oil to:
TORQUE-DRIVE SYNTHETIC ATF--offering up to 150,000 miles. I have never had to add oil to my engine between oil changes in 20,000 miles, over two years. I expect this engine to give me the 200,000 miles that WH says is possible.

Engine OILS and Filters are an inexpensive investment.
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Old 03-13-2006, 09:38 AM   #42
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TO; Rogueii;,

Glad to see another advvocate and user of synthetics, I have many postings about my use.

I've used them since they became available, I figured if my cousin was using them in his race cars , they must be pretty good.

Use synthetic oil in every engine, moho, cars, lawn mowers, wood chippers, etc.

30 + years, no internal engine problems.

Even have Transynd sinthetic in my allison tranny since it hit 5,000 miles which extends the change frequency.

Yes, synthetics costs more, but whats the repair costs of engine problems from oil breakdowns or overheating???

If you have a $50,000 plus rig, what's $100.00 more at change time. What's the cost for time lost waiting for repairs?? You know, we can't spend the same time more than once, use it , it's gone.


Thanks==== Aime=== AJBJRVERS
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