RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > iRV2.com COMMUNITY FORUMS > iRV2.com General Discussion
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-14-2019, 11:19 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,410
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ_Clemson View Post
Title should say Lithium IRON. Not sure how to edit it.
Actually ion is pretty close. Might ask Progressive, if they can set up their charge profile with charge wizard to 14.4 bulk and 13.5 float, that would solve your problem, could be added to your one stage charger. Agree with HJ, one stage charging is cheap and antiquated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery
__________________

__________________
Foretravel tag axle 40 ft. 500 hp/1550 ft/lbs ism 1455 watts on the roof. 600 a/h's lithium down below.
jcussen is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-14-2019, 11:37 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ_Clemson View Post
Title should say Lithium IRON. Not sure how to edit it.
I'm pretty sure the thread's title did have lithium Iron in it when I first came across it.

I have been to the Progressive page as well and have not been successful in finding the information we're looking for. You would think this would be easy to find in the product descriptions but it's not.

This page lists the PD4060LICSV as a replacement for the PD4060.
https://www.progressivedyn.com/lithi...acement-units/

But good luck finding that unit in another place on their website. The page below lists a description for the PD4060LIK, the closest I could find. It's easy to see this model number is a bit different than the model number we're looking for. Who knows, maybe they're the same unit or have the same specs.
https://www.progressivedyn.com/speci...power-centers/
__________________

__________________
03 Itasca Sunova, Workhorse P32 with the 8.1 and 4L85-E
Mudfrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 02:45 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 470
A single stage charger is fine for lipo4. The 14.6 volts is a little high but won't damage them. You will find anything over 14 volts, or 3.5 volts per cell is just fluff and has very little stored wattage. That surface charge is gone in seconds upon using the battery so there is little reason to take the batteries that high during the charge cycle. Some way of the charger sampling the pac voltage at rest would be needed to stop at 14 volts. My friend has been running these in an electric car for 10 years. No bms, just a wall timer with the lead acid charger. He cycles them 3 times a day. It is his only car.
shootist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 08:01 AM   #18
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 25
https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...me-Useful-Data

This is a very interesting read. It says when the batteries are charged, the voltage remains at 14.6 VDC, but the current tapers off to zero amps.

Not really sure if I believe that, but the guy seems to know what he's talking about. Now if Battle Born and Progressive Dynamics would get back to me.
EJ_Clemson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:25 AM   #19
Moderator Emeritus
 
Gary RVRoamer's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Silver Springs, FL. USA
Posts: 21,236
Quote:
It says when the batteries are charged, the voltage remains at 14.6 VDC, but the current tapers off to zero amps.

That's the definition of acceptance charging, which would be 2nd stage for lead-acid batteries. The charger maintains constant voltage and the battery governs the amps it accepts, thus tapering off to zero at full charge. The question is, does the Battery Monitor on an LiPO4 battery do that?
__________________
Gary Brinck
Former owner of 2004 American Tradition and several other RVs
Home is in the Ocala Nat'l Forest near Ocala, FL
Summers in Black Mountain, NC
Gary RVRoamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:20 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ_Clemson View Post
https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...me-Useful-Data

This is a very interesting read. It says when the batteries are charged, the voltage remains at 14.6 VDC, but the current tapers off to zero amps.

Not really sure if I believe that, but the guy seems to know what he's talking about. Now if Battle Born and Progressive Dynamics would get back to me.
That is exactly the proper charge format. The batteries will not taper themselves. I still would not charge them to that high a voltage. I would want the charger to cut out at 14 or 14.2. You can put really high charge voltages into them, they won't be damaged, but you cannot bring the cells up to really high charge voltages. There are guys charging 72 volt packs at 105 volts just to show it doesn't hurt them. But they don't bring the batteries near that high.
shootist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:16 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
Posts: 777
Lithium charging

I would love to have Lithium batteries in my TT. I am too cheap to invest in them. I have researched them a little. I have used lithium ion batteries and chargers for electric model airplanes.

As far as I can tell, Battleborns have built in charge management systems. The systems prevent overcharging and do a good job of dealing with all the varying voltages the most RV's and TT's currently have.

The systems go further. They monitor individual cell voltages, currents, and temperatures. They provide optimum charging, discharging, and safety.

A single voltage regulated charger has never been "obsolete". They are not optimum for charging most lead/acid batteries and so are not widely used today.

14.4 volt single stage chargers should be optimum for charging Battleborn lithium batteries. The built in BMS will adjust charging and discharging at different temperatures. Changing back to a multistage lead/acid battery charger will be less than optimum.

Why should you "turn it off" when not charging? You should not if you are using the RV or TT. You should turn it off if storing it. The reason is Li batteries give better life if stored in a discharged state. They will work fine if stored charged, you can just get marginally better life if stored discharged.

Your Battleborn system is wonderful. Use it. Enjoy!
__________________
Paul Bristol
Kodiak Cub 176RD
Nissan Pathfinder 2015
Persistent is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:17 AM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,410
Battle Born told me to set my charger to bulk at 14.4 volts, absorption at same for 10 min. [for top balancing] then float at 13.5 volts. Generally charger does not go into bulk again until battery voltage falls to 13.2 or so. If I am correct, your converter will supply all 12 volt power when plugged in, with no load at all on battery, so it will never fall when plugged in. So sitting at 14.6, probably no current to battery from charger. BB says this is okay, but I have an inverter/charger with parasitic loads so batteries only stay at 100% for short periods of time. Agree with BB, seeing you do not need batteries when plugged in, would just shut charger off as soon as they reach 100% with no load on them, should be fine till you unplug.
__________________
Foretravel tag axle 40 ft. 500 hp/1550 ft/lbs ism 1455 watts on the roof. 600 a/h's lithium down below.
jcussen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 11:20 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
Posts: 777
Cool Lithium not Lead/Acid

I can see there are almost as many myths about lithium batteries developing as there are about lead/acid batteries.

The lithium charging profiles are a lot different from lead/acid charging profiles. Lithium are charged at a constant current until fully charged. That is one of the major benefits of lithium. It takes much less time to fully charge. There is a slight voltage drop when the batteries reach full charge. The charger must detect that drop and stop the constant current. That means zero current when fully charged.

Lead/acid are charged using a constant voltage. The current flows as the batteries allow. (Yes, I know modern chargers vary the voltage a little to accelerate the charge, but it makes only a little difference). Current tapers slowly as the charge progresses. Because the batteries absorb less and less as charging progresses, it takes 14 to 18 hours to fully charge any lead/acid battery.

The Battle Born batteries have built in chargers. The chargers are specially programmed to optimize lithium battery life and safety. The Converter/Charger the TT connects to the Battle Borns does not control the charging. It only provides a power source for the BB chargers inside the battery case. A lower voltage or current TT converter only limits the BB charger. Battle Borns do not require any special external charging profiles.

Lithium batteries will give a little longer life if they are stored in a discharged state. The individual cells in the battery must not be driven negative. Individual cells vary a little as to the charge they hold so those holding more charge can potentially drive the lower capacity cells negative.

The Battle born charger/management system monitors individual cell voltage and will not allow them to drop too low.

High heat and freezing temperatures are the only thing you can control that may affect the Battle Born batteries. Even then the BB BMS will stop charging and/or discharging before there is significant damage.

The best way to get maximum value from your BB batteries is to use them. There is no special way. Use them when you want. It would be difficult for you to harm them.
__________________
Paul Bristol
Kodiak Cub 176RD
Nissan Pathfinder 2015
Persistent is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2019, 12:17 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 470
You store lithium batteries at 60% charge, If they sit discharged it completely ruins them. Not positive the same applys to lifepo4 but I think it does.
shootist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2019, 06:19 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
wildtoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,123
The link shows what looks like a replacement part, not the complete charger. Who you should call is Progressive Dynamics.
__________________
Tom Wilds
Blythewood SC
2016 Newmar Bay Star Sport 3004
2015 Jeep Wrangler 2DR 4WD Sahara, Automatic, Hard Top
wildtoad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2019, 07:55 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
Itinerant1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Itinerant
Posts: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Persistent View Post
I can see there are almost as many myths about lithium batteries developing as there are about lead/acid batteries.

The lithium charging profiles are a lot different from lead/acid charging profiles. Lithium are charged at a constant current until fully charged. That is one of the major benefits of lithium. It takes much less time to fully charge. There is a slight voltage drop when the batteries reach full charge. The charger must detect that drop and stop the constant current. That means zero current when fully charged.
With my LFP (not BB) the only drop I see is when the batteries reach my preset voltage of 14.2v of the charge controller then it drops to the preset 13.6v of float were the batteries are accepting no more charge but the power from solar carrying loads in the trailer.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Persistent View Post
The Battle Born batteries have built in chargers. The chargers are specially programmed to optimize lithium battery life and safety. The Converter/Charger the TT connects to the Battle Borns does not control the charging. It only provides a power source for the BB chargers inside the battery case. A lower voltage or current TT converter only limits the BB charger. Battle Borns do not require any special external charging profiles.
BB don't have built in chargers, they have what you mention further in your post a "BMS" which protects the cells (over/ under voltage, cold/ hot temps, balancing). If they did have built in chargers why would you need to buy a charger for them?

The charging source is what charges the batteries (some are preset voltages, some are adjustable voltages) whether a plugin or solar.

How do these myths emerge?
Itinerant1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2019, 08:30 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,069
There are some variances in thinking here in this thread and if it were me, I'd not try to go one way or another until I got the true facts. This is on the Battleborn website and should be helpful in getting things straight.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq/
__________________
03 Itasca Sunova, Workhorse P32 with the 8.1 and 4L85-E
Mudfrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2019, 08:44 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ_Clemson View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong.



I purchased 2 lithium 100ah batteries. I also purchased a progressive dynamics PD4060LICSV lithium charger to replace my current 4 stage lead acid/agm battery charger. This lithium charger provides a constant 14.6VDC as long as it is receiving AC power.



Battle Born sells this charger on their website and states "These Units are designed to properly charge lithium iron phosphate batteries.". So i email them about the constant 14.6 volts always getting pushed to the batteries. I figure the BMS will manage the input and do what's necessary. They reply to me and say" they recommend disconnecting the charger."



Does that not sound crazy?? I understand the concept and maybe they are telling me this for full 100% protection of the battery, but when you sell a charger for your lithium batteries, you shouldn't have to tell people to disconnect it when that's not in the reasonable use of the charger. Yeah, i only have to flip a breaker, but that's still not a "drop in ready battery".



So, those of you with lithium batteries and chargers that throw a constant 14.6 volts, do you disconnect them from charging when they get full? This would mostly apply when being plugged into shore power.
My magnum Ms 2812 series is incredible, automatic and programable . It senses the batteries condition and goes through a series of charge. Then it says batteries full.

Why would a company make a charger that won't go into the float or monitoring mode. Sounds like a poor design.
I'm very happy with the four Deka group 31 AGM batteries.
__________________

carl.swoyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lithium



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lithium Ion Batteries pumper9x9 Class A Motorhome Discussions 10 11-29-2013 09:08 AM
Lithium Ion Batteries for RVs HughCJ Newmar Owner's Forum 40 11-26-2013 10:26 PM
Lithium ion battery GC45 RV Systems & Appliances 11 04-30-2011 02:32 AM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×