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Old 10-17-2019, 09:36 AM   #29
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Why would a company make a charger that won't go into the float or monitoring mode. Sounds like a poor design.
I'm very happy with the four Deka group 31 AGM batteries.
I may be getting it wrong here but from what I have gotten out of this thread and off the Battleborn website, the charger only has to put out the correct voltage. The battery's built in BCM takes care of controlling the charge rate after that.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:30 AM   #30
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BB and other dropins have BMS which protects the cells that make up the battery.
One of the things is the over/ under voltage.

These manufacturers will say something like 14.4-14.6v charging, so as long as the charge source is within these parameters you're fine. Now if for some reason the charge source goes rogue with a higher voltage that bms will shut the battery down to protect the cells/ battery, it's not regulating the voltage coming in.
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:55 PM   #31
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BB and other dropins have BMS which protects the cells that make up the battery.
One of the things is the over/ under voltage.

These manufacturers will say something like 14.4-14.6v charging, so as long as the charge source is within these parameters you're fine. Now if for some reason the charge source goes rogue with a higher voltage that bms will shut the battery down to protect the cells/ battery, it's not regulating the voltage coming in.
After viewing the "charging parameters" video, I believe you're right that the BMS does not do the regulating. The video states that the charger's optimum output voltages be 14.4 volts during bulk charging and 13.6 volts or lower during the float charge phase.
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:17 PM   #32
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I've been living off of Lifepo4/ solar for 42 months now and have fair understanding. Even though mine aren't dropin all are basically the same for parameters that are needed for LFP (LifePO4) chemistry.

Your charge sources or if using programmable inverters are your first line of defense's for voltages for the batteries.

The BMS is your last line of defense that protects the cells with in the dropins or in my case the 20 prismatic cells that make up 12v 100ah (x5 = 500ah).
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Old 10-17-2019, 02:06 PM   #33
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Been a while since I have used a converter/charger, but seem to remember that when plugged in, they supply all the 12 volt to the coach.
If this is true, why does the charger even have to be on after batteries are charged? Lithium Ion do not have to brought to 100% SOC. like LA, so you can just leave it off till it drops down to 10 or 20% then recharge. With no load on batteries, would be a long long time.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:31 AM   #34
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You store lithium batteries at 60% charge, If they sit discharged it completely ruins them. Not positive the same applys to lifepo4 but I think it does.
This is a good policy to use in managing your BB lithiums. It will lead to long useful life. However, 60% during storage is not required for long life.

It is one choice for optimizing life. Storing at 100% or 10% will make only a small difference. Your lithiums will last many years. They will out live many RV's and TT's which ever storage percentage happens to be used.

The main point is lead/acid (many users are familiar with) needs to be stored at or near full charge. Lithiums do not require this level for storage. In fact they will last longer at lower levels.

It may imply you must do this or lose your investment. This is not true.

It does imply that you can discharge the BB's enough to ruin them. It is possible, but very difficult to do. The BB BMS will do everything it can to prevent it.

It is reversing the voltage in a single cell that will ruin your lithium battery. The BB BMS shuts off all discharging before any one cell goes negative. It will be difficult for you to circumvent this protection.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:49 AM   #35
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Actually ion is pretty close. Might ask Progressive, if they can set up their charge profile with charge wizard to 14.4 bulk and 13.5 float, that would solve your problem, could be added to your one stage charger. Agree with HJ, one stage charging is cheap and antiquated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery
There is no problem. There is no need to call or to change anything. The BB BMS is designed to handle a wide range of input voltages. It will handle everything from engine alternator fast charge to older 13.2 single stage chargers.

The BMS will do it's thing regardless of any changes you make to input voltage.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:52 AM   #36
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https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...me-Useful-Data

This is a very interesting read. It says when the batteries are charged, the voltage remains at 14.6 VDC, but the current tapers off to zero amps.

Not really sure if I believe that, but the guy seems to know what he's talking about. Now if Battle Born and Progressive Dynamics would get back to me.
This is absolutely true. This is exactly what lithium charge profile requires.

The battery is charged at a constant current from start to finish. The charger detects when fully charged and shuts current off completely. There are minor variations to this, but this is essentially correct.
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:18 PM   #37
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There is no problem. There is no need to call or to change anything. The BB BMS is designed to handle a wide range of input voltages. It will handle everything from engine alternator fast charge to older 13.2 single stage chargers.

The BMS will do it's thing regardless of any changes you make to input voltage.
Yes BB will accept almost any voltage without damage, but certainly will not charge to 100% on 13.2 volts which is why BB recommends 14.4 to 14.6 bulk charge. On my system, once voltage falls to 13.3 volts, charger goes back into bulk at 14.4.
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:20 PM   #38
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BB don't have built in chargers, they have what you mention further in your post a "BMS" which protects the cells (over/ under voltage, cold/ hot temps, balancing). If they did have built in chargers why would you need to buy a charger for them?

The charging source is what charges the batteries (some are preset voltages, some are adjustable voltages) whether a plugin or solar.

How do these myths emerge?
This is wrong. BB lithiums do have built in chargers. The internal charger accepts volts from widely available TT and RV converter charger inverter systems, adjusts and controls that input, providing clean proper voltage and current to the battery cells.

You don't have to buy a lead acid charger to charge Battle Born lithium batteries. Use what ever you have until old charger fails.

I did not look up the input voltage range they are designed for, but it is probably between 14.6 volts DC to 13.2 volts DC. By any definition it is an internal charger.

You can buy lithium batteries that do not have built in chargers. If you attempt to charge them with standard lead/acid chargers you will not be happy with the results. To prevent destroying the batteries and possibly starting a fire, you need a lithium specific charge controller.

Battle Born Lithiums are designed to be "Drop in Replacements" for deep draw lead acid battery system. They accept the lead acid system outputs, convert them to the lithium requirements and insulate the user from any need to learn new battery management requirements.

I can't imagine a simpler solution to dry camping power management. I can't understand why people try to make it problem they must manage. Forget them. Use them. Go camping. No need to manage them.
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:31 PM   #39
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My magnum Ms 2812 series is incredible, automatic and programable . It senses the batteries condition and goes through a series of charge. Then it says batteries full.

Why would a company make a charger that won't go into the float or monitoring mode. Sounds like a poor design.
I'm very happy with the four Deka group 31 AGM batteries.
I am sure your Magnum MS 2812 is an awesome deep draw lead acid battery charger. It's modern microprocessor controlled system produces an optimum charging profile.

However, don't try to use it to charge a lithium battery unless the lithium battery has it's own charge controller. The Battle Born "Drop in Replacements" do have their own charge controllers. It is designed to change what ever your Magnum applies to it and alter it to what the lithium battery needs.

The only parameters one needs to consider in connecting a Battle Born to any lead acid charger is; Does it have enough current capacity to efficiently charge the Battle Born? Does the high and low voltage output of the lead acid battery charger fall within the limits of the BB internal charge controller?
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:32 PM   #40
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This is wrong. BB lithiums do have built in chargers. The internal charger accepts volts from widely available TT and RV converter charger inverter systems, adjusts and controls that input, providing clean proper voltage and current to the battery cells.

You don't have to buy a lead acid charger to charge Battle Born lithium batteries. Use what ever you have until old charger fails.

I did not look up the input voltage range they are designed for, but it is probably between 14.6 volts DC to 13.2 volts DC. By any definition it is an internal charger.

You can buy lithium batteries that do not have built in chargers. If you attempt to charge them with standard lead/acid chargers you will not be happy with the results. To prevent destroying the batteries and possibly starting a fire, you need a lithium specific charge controller.

Battle Born Lithiums are designed to be "Drop in Replacements" for deep draw lead acid battery system. They accept the lead acid system outputs, convert them to the lithium requirements and insulate the user from any need to learn new battery management requirements.

I can't imagine a simpler solution to dry camping power management. I can't understand why people try to make it problem they must manage. Forget them. Use them. Go camping. No need to manage them.
So you are saying BB's can take a 13.2 volt input and change it into the 14.4 volts necessary to charge them to 100%? That is truly amazing.
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:55 PM   #41
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So you are saying BB's can take a 13.2 volt input and change it into the 14.4 volts necessary to charge them to 100%? That is truly amazing.
Yes, that is what I am saying.

I had a 30 amp constant voltage converter/charger in my previous TT. The voltage was 13.2 volts DC. It charged my 2 100 amp hour GEL's to 100% just fine over night on shore power no matter how deeply discharged they were. I would be greatly surprised if that same charger would not fully charge 200 amp hours of Battle Born lithium batteries in a fraction of that time.

That old charger may or may not take a little more time to charge Battle Born's than my new 30 amp 3 stage charger. It depends on the BB BMS capability to draw the same 30 amps at 13.2 as it could get from the 14.4 volts my current charger supplies. That capability is what ever was designed into the BB electronics.

A lithium charger could be designed to charge a 12 volt lithium from any voltage input; 1.5 volts DC to 1300 volts AC or more. For instance a 6 volt 60 amp input could be designed to charge a lithium 12 volt battery. It is all in the charge controller design.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:00 PM   #42
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This is wrong. BB lithiums do have built in chargers. The internal charger accepts volts from widely available TT and RV converter charger inverter systems, adjusts and controls that input, providing clean proper voltage and current to the battery cells.

You don't have to buy a lead acid charger to charge Battle Born lithium batteries. Use what ever you have until old charger fails.

I did not look up the input voltage range they are designed for, but it is probably between 14.6 volts DC to 13.2 volts DC. By any definition it is an internal charger.

You can buy lithium batteries that do not have built in chargers. If you attempt to charge them with standard lead/acid chargers you will not be happy with the results. To prevent destroying the batteries and possibly starting a fire, you need a lithium specific charge controller.

Battle Born Lithiums are designed to be "Drop in Replacements" for deep draw lead acid battery system. They accept the lead acid system outputs, convert them to the lithium requirements and insulate the user from any need to learn new battery management requirements.

I can't imagine a simpler solution to dry camping power management. I can't understand why people try to make it problem they must manage. Forget them. Use them. Go camping. No need to manage them.
If this is what you like to believe that they have a "built in charger" so be it.

I'll respectfully disagree. You're mixed up with what a bms does and "regulating" incoming voltage isn't one of them. You have no control over the "bms" it does what BB set it up to protect the battery (cells) with max/ min voltages. Good luck.
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