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Old 10-14-2019, 10:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by EJ_Clemson View Post
Title should say Lithium IRON. Not sure how to edit it.
Actually ion is pretty close. Might ask Progressive, if they can set up their charge profile with charge wizard to 14.4 bulk and 13.5 float, that would solve your problem, could be added to your one stage charger. Agree with HJ, one stage charging is cheap and antiquated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery
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Old 10-14-2019, 10:37 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by EJ_Clemson View Post
Title should say Lithium IRON. Not sure how to edit it.
I'm pretty sure the thread's title did have lithium Iron in it when I first came across it.

I have been to the Progressive page as well and have not been successful in finding the information we're looking for. You would think this would be easy to find in the product descriptions but it's not.

This page lists the PD4060LICSV as a replacement for the PD4060.
https://www.progressivedyn.com/lithi...acement-units/

But good luck finding that unit in another place on their website. The page below lists a description for the PD4060LIK, the closest I could find. It's easy to see this model number is a bit different than the model number we're looking for. Who knows, maybe they're the same unit or have the same specs.
https://www.progressivedyn.com/speci...power-centers/
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:45 AM   #17
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A single stage charger is fine for lipo4. The 14.6 volts is a little high but won't damage them. You will find anything over 14 volts, or 3.5 volts per cell is just fluff and has very little stored wattage. That surface charge is gone in seconds upon using the battery so there is little reason to take the batteries that high during the charge cycle. Some way of the charger sampling the pac voltage at rest would be needed to stop at 14 volts. My friend has been running these in an electric car for 10 years. No bms, just a wall timer with the lead acid charger. He cycles them 3 times a day. It is his only car.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:01 AM   #18
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https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...me-Useful-Data

This is a very interesting read. It says when the batteries are charged, the voltage remains at 14.6 VDC, but the current tapers off to zero amps.

Not really sure if I believe that, but the guy seems to know what he's talking about. Now if Battle Born and Progressive Dynamics would get back to me.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:25 AM   #19
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It says when the batteries are charged, the voltage remains at 14.6 VDC, but the current tapers off to zero amps.

That's the definition of acceptance charging, which would be 2nd stage for lead-acid batteries. The charger maintains constant voltage and the battery governs the amps it accepts, thus tapering off to zero at full charge. The question is, does the Battery Monitor on an LiPO4 battery do that?
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:20 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by EJ_Clemson View Post
https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...me-Useful-Data

This is a very interesting read. It says when the batteries are charged, the voltage remains at 14.6 VDC, but the current tapers off to zero amps.

Not really sure if I believe that, but the guy seems to know what he's talking about. Now if Battle Born and Progressive Dynamics would get back to me.
That is exactly the proper charge format. The batteries will not taper themselves. I still would not charge them to that high a voltage. I would want the charger to cut out at 14 or 14.2. You can put really high charge voltages into them, they won't be damaged, but you cannot bring the cells up to really high charge voltages. There are guys charging 72 volt packs at 105 volts just to show it doesn't hurt them. But they don't bring the batteries near that high.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:16 AM   #21
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Lithium charging

I would love to have Lithium batteries in my TT. I am too cheap to invest in them. I have researched them a little. I have used lithium ion batteries and chargers for electric model airplanes.

As far as I can tell, Battleborns have built in charge management systems. The systems prevent overcharging and do a good job of dealing with all the varying voltages the most RV's and TT's currently have.

The systems go further. They monitor individual cell voltages, currents, and temperatures. They provide optimum charging, discharging, and safety.

A single voltage regulated charger has never been "obsolete". They are not optimum for charging most lead/acid batteries and so are not widely used today.

14.4 volt single stage chargers should be optimum for charging Battleborn lithium batteries. The built in BMS will adjust charging and discharging at different temperatures. Changing back to a multistage lead/acid battery charger will be less than optimum.

Why should you "turn it off" when not charging? You should not if you are using the RV or TT. You should turn it off if storing it. The reason is Li batteries give better life if stored in a discharged state. They will work fine if stored charged, you can just get marginally better life if stored discharged.

Your Battleborn system is wonderful. Use it. Enjoy!
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:17 AM   #22
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Battle Born told me to set my charger to bulk at 14.4 volts, absorption at same for 10 min. [for top balancing] then float at 13.5 volts. Generally charger does not go into bulk again until battery voltage falls to 13.2 or so. If I am correct, your converter will supply all 12 volt power when plugged in, with no load at all on battery, so it will never fall when plugged in. So sitting at 14.6, probably no current to battery from charger. BB says this is okay, but I have an inverter/charger with parasitic loads so batteries only stay at 100% for short periods of time. Agree with BB, seeing you do not need batteries when plugged in, would just shut charger off as soon as they reach 100% with no load on them, should be fine till you unplug.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:20 AM   #23
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Cool Lithium not Lead/Acid

I can see there are almost as many myths about lithium batteries developing as there are about lead/acid batteries.

The lithium charging profiles are a lot different from lead/acid charging profiles. Lithium are charged at a constant current until fully charged. That is one of the major benefits of lithium. It takes much less time to fully charge. There is a slight voltage drop when the batteries reach full charge. The charger must detect that drop and stop the constant current. That means zero current when fully charged.

Lead/acid are charged using a constant voltage. The current flows as the batteries allow. (Yes, I know modern chargers vary the voltage a little to accelerate the charge, but it makes only a little difference). Current tapers slowly as the charge progresses. Because the batteries absorb less and less as charging progresses, it takes 14 to 18 hours to fully charge any lead/acid battery.

The Battle Born batteries have built in chargers. The chargers are specially programmed to optimize lithium battery life and safety. The Converter/Charger the TT connects to the Battle Borns does not control the charging. It only provides a power source for the BB chargers inside the battery case. A lower voltage or current TT converter only limits the BB charger. Battle Borns do not require any special external charging profiles.

Lithium batteries will give a little longer life if they are stored in a discharged state. The individual cells in the battery must not be driven negative. Individual cells vary a little as to the charge they hold so those holding more charge can potentially drive the lower capacity cells negative.

The Battle born charger/management system monitors individual cell voltage and will not allow them to drop too low.

High heat and freezing temperatures are the only thing you can control that may affect the Battle Born batteries. Even then the BB BMS will stop charging and/or discharging before there is significant damage.

The best way to get maximum value from your BB batteries is to use them. There is no special way. Use them when you want. It would be difficult for you to harm them.
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:17 PM   #24
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You store lithium batteries at 60% charge, If they sit discharged it completely ruins them. Not positive the same applys to lifepo4 but I think it does.
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Old 10-17-2019, 05:19 AM   #25
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The link shows what looks like a replacement part, not the complete charger. Who you should call is Progressive Dynamics.
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Old 10-17-2019, 06:55 AM   #26
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I can see there are almost as many myths about lithium batteries developing as there are about lead/acid batteries.

The lithium charging profiles are a lot different from lead/acid charging profiles. Lithium are charged at a constant current until fully charged. That is one of the major benefits of lithium. It takes much less time to fully charge. There is a slight voltage drop when the batteries reach full charge. The charger must detect that drop and stop the constant current. That means zero current when fully charged.
With my LFP (not BB) the only drop I see is when the batteries reach my preset voltage of 14.2v of the charge controller then it drops to the preset 13.6v of float were the batteries are accepting no more charge but the power from solar carrying loads in the trailer.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Persistent View Post
The Battle Born batteries have built in chargers. The chargers are specially programmed to optimize lithium battery life and safety. The Converter/Charger the TT connects to the Battle Borns does not control the charging. It only provides a power source for the BB chargers inside the battery case. A lower voltage or current TT converter only limits the BB charger. Battle Borns do not require any special external charging profiles.
BB don't have built in chargers, they have what you mention further in your post a "BMS" which protects the cells (over/ under voltage, cold/ hot temps, balancing). If they did have built in chargers why would you need to buy a charger for them?

The charging source is what charges the batteries (some are preset voltages, some are adjustable voltages) whether a plugin or solar.

How do these myths emerge?
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:30 AM   #27
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There are some variances in thinking here in this thread and if it were me, I'd not try to go one way or another until I got the true facts. This is on the Battleborn website and should be helpful in getting things straight.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq/
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:44 AM   #28
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Please correct me if I'm wrong.



I purchased 2 lithium 100ah batteries. I also purchased a progressive dynamics PD4060LICSV lithium charger to replace my current 4 stage lead acid/agm battery charger. This lithium charger provides a constant 14.6VDC as long as it is receiving AC power.



Battle Born sells this charger on their website and states "These Units are designed to properly charge lithium iron phosphate batteries.". So i email them about the constant 14.6 volts always getting pushed to the batteries. I figure the BMS will manage the input and do what's necessary. They reply to me and say" they recommend disconnecting the charger."



Does that not sound crazy?? I understand the concept and maybe they are telling me this for full 100% protection of the battery, but when you sell a charger for your lithium batteries, you shouldn't have to tell people to disconnect it when that's not in the reasonable use of the charger. Yeah, i only have to flip a breaker, but that's still not a "drop in ready battery".



So, those of you with lithium batteries and chargers that throw a constant 14.6 volts, do you disconnect them from charging when they get full? This would mostly apply when being plugged into shore power.
My magnum Ms 2812 series is incredible, automatic and programable . It senses the batteries condition and goes through a series of charge. Then it says batteries full.

Why would a company make a charger that won't go into the float or monitoring mode. Sounds like a poor design.
I'm very happy with the four Deka group 31 AGM batteries.
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