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Old 09-01-2016, 10:37 AM   #43
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Why don't one of you guys just call Tiffin and ask? Shirley () they can get you in touch with a QC or engineering guy to answer this age old question.

Or, I guess you can just keep bitching about it on here...

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Old 09-01-2016, 02:45 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by AggieDad;3228337
The first one I looked at was a 2015 used unit. While looking through it, I noticed the shower door out of line (no big deal - easy adjustment). But then I noticed that the hinge was attached with [U
flathead screws[/U] which are not correct for attaching sheetmetal.
Are they indeed the incorrect screws for the purpose?

I looked at my boat shower door and noticed the door hinge is attached to the aluminum frame with oval screws. This looked strange as the oval head stuck out and would not allow the hinge to close flat, except for the fact that the hinge doesn't need to close flat. I also looked at the door stop opposite the hinge side and saw again small oval head screws that seemed to small for the counter sunk hole. See second picture.

I don't know if this means anything, they don't look right, but they've held up for almost 20 years.

I guess I would judge the quality of the unit more on the mis-aligned door than the screws used. But I do see Aggie Dad's point.
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Old 09-01-2016, 02:54 PM   #45
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Are you kidding me!!! Everything I find wrong with EVERY RV I've ever worked on could EASILY be fixed with simple industrial engineering. In fact, most of the issues I see would be a money saver for the RV builder if done RIGHT>

Read about Deming and his efforts to turn Japans terrible workmanship around after WWII. Very interesting read.....The RV industry needs a modern day Deming!

Deming Influence on Post-war Japanese Quality Development
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Old 09-01-2016, 03:36 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by rbertalotto View Post
Are you kidding me!!! Everything I find wrong with EVERY RV I've ever worked on could EASILY be fixed with simple industrial engineering. In fact, most of the issues I see would be a money saver for the RV builder if done RIGHT>
I think it's more a corporate culture shift that needs to occur.

Engineering principals and the workmanship needed to produce a quality rig are not complicated.
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Old 09-01-2016, 03:45 PM   #47
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Well, I guess I opened a bit of "Who cares?" - "It's important" hornets nest.

My main point was (and I reiterated this previously), if the obvious is not correct, then what about that which is not readily visible? This is my mindset, my way of looking at things. I wasn't worried so much about one screw type being wrongly applied as I was about it seeming symptomatic of a systemic problem within the industry.

My mindset and attitude come from my dad who was in charge of final assembly for the Budd Company in the era of streamliner trains. Budd built those beautiful stainless-steel passenger cars like the dome cars you used to see going through the mountain passes in those neat magazine ads back in the fifties. I know what would and would not have been acceptable to him and to the Budd Company.

When I was in college I worked at the plant during summers. I know how things can be done properly and I know the pride you can instill in your workforce. Trust me, using the correct fasteners, careful wiring, etc. and quality control are all possible without an undue burden of additional cost.

rbertalotto mentioned Edwards Deming, the man who taught quality control methods to the Japanese. It would be well for our RV industry to read a bit of Deming.
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Old 09-01-2016, 04:53 PM   #48
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It is hard to read and appreciate Demming when you are up to the rafters in orders.

First the manufacturers have to agree with the users that using the "incorrect" screw is a big enough issue to apply corrective action to. Since they are making a profit (probably a healthy one) it could be hard to convince them to engineer a process and shut down production to implement it.

The Japanese had to go to quality to get inroads into the North American market. They were very successful at it because at the time they easily outperformed the existing market offerings. They would have the same success if they started producing MH for the same market.

Unfortunately the existing manufacturers already have the corner on the market and without competition are unlikely to change the existing business model no matter what they say. I expect they are thinking "it is working now so why engineer it until it is broken"

All you have to do is read the threads to see how enamored some owners groups are about their brand of coaches and how adamant they are about the high quality delivered.
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Old 09-01-2016, 05:40 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by barmcd View Post
I'm surprised they used flat head screws since they can't be driven with an air or electric driver.

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