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08-27-2016, 05:19 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 363
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Where are the designers & engineers?
While at an RV outlet in the St Louis area for supplies, I decided to look at a Tiffin Allegro Breeze. I have a 34' Winnebago, and the Breeze is an opportunity to move to diesel without moving to a larger coach. In addition, Tiffin has the kind of strong reputation that puts them high on my list.
The first one I looked at was a 2015 used unit. While looking through it, I noticed the shower door out of line (no big deal - easy adjustment). But then I noticed that the hinge was attached with flathead screws which are not correct for attaching sheetmetal. Okay, maybe it was an oversight and Tiffin figured it out.
Next I looked at a brand new unit - a 2017 model. Of course one of the first things I looked at was the shower door. Sure enough, the same flathead screws attaching the same sheetmetal. No learning occurred at Tiffin.
Would it have been difficult to use pan-head screws or finish washers with the flathead screws?
I know this is a minor issue - one I could correct for myself in minutes. BUT it begs the larger question: If a minor (and very obvious) issue is allowed to not only happen initially but continue, then what bad design or execution issues lurk out of sight?
Now I have a small, but gnawing, doubt in the back of my mind as to whether or not Tiffin is really any different than all the others.
__________________
Don Simmons
2006 Winnebago Voyage 33V Pushed by a 2014 Chevrolet Captiva
Visit us at Travels With Linda
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08-28-2016, 01:36 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 552
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Read posts on RV travel.com where he talks about problems manufacturers have with hiring people and trying to train them. So many units being built and they are all messed up. Even if I had the money I wouldn't buy a new RV 😀
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08-28-2016, 05:57 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieDad
Would it have been difficult to use pan-head screws or finish washers with the flathead screws?
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Maybe there are other places that use flathead screws, and switching back and forth between screw types would add a few milli-seconds to the build time.
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08-28-2016, 06:18 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Spartan Chassis
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 1,562
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It's not the head type that determines the appropriateness of a screw for an application. Sheet metal screws can have many different types of heads, flat-head being one of them. Usually flat head screws are used in a countersunk hole so the screw head is flush with the surface. Tiffin might be using sheet metal screws but with the wrong head. I agree flat-head screws that aren't countersunk are unsightly and make it look like somebody used the wrong screw.
__________________
Bill & Lynne
Memphis, TN
2017 Entegra Anthem 44B - Victory Blue
2016 Ford Edge Titanium
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08-28-2016, 06:44 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Full-timers - Home is where we park it.
Posts: 4,722
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AggieDad, I can see why you wouldn't want to use flat head screws in thin sheet metal because the heads may pull through. Do you know what are the guidelines for minimum metal thickness to be able to use flat head screws?
As I look around our RV, all the butt-type and piano hinges have flat head screws. The reason is round head or pan head screws would interfere with the screw heads on the opposite side of the hinge. Some of the hinges are small and some are larger, but even the smallest of them are made of metal that is thick enough (.030") that I wouldn't call it thin sheet metal.
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08-28-2016, 07:57 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Snowbird - Waterford Mi and Citrus Springs Fl.
Posts: 3,609
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I think this is much less about design and engineering, and way more about workmanship and QC.
Even if there was a "newbie" using the wrong screw on the assembly line, there should have been an inspector that could have gone up the line and "schooled" the assembler - assuming he/she knew any better.
I would not have been real impressed seeing the issue either..... the fact it exists, or the fact it seems to be an ongoing issue....
__________________
1997 37' HR Endeavor, 275hp Cat, Freightliner
03 CR-V Blue Ox, Ready Brake
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08-28-2016, 01:08 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,283
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15 Discovery 40E
I've fixed almost 130 mfger screwups. And made another 60 improvements. 1 1/2 Yr old motorhome. As long as the chassis is good, the 130 are trival and cheap to fix. Anything on the chassis is hundreds to thousands. Worry about significant things.
__________________
Full Timers.
2015 Fleetwood Discovery 40E on a Freightliner XCS chassis with a Cummins ISL9 pulling 1 and/or 2 motorcycles, '07 Honda Accord OR a 17' Runabout Boat.
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08-28-2016, 03:28 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Over the next hill, around the next curve...
Posts: 5,663
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Don't want to sidetrack this as one of those "We all caused this, by forcing the manufactures to reach price points that we'd be willing to pay."
Many of the manufactures that did not cut corners, both designing and building things with better materials, are no longer with us.
Tiffin, Fleetwood, Etc. have had to find a balance between material choices, design, labor expenses vs costs that the public is willing to pay for. Some, again like Fleetwood and Tiffen, have enough depth that they have entry/mid/upper end coaches. (Zephyr and American Coach). They cost more, and their volume of unit production or lower.
I personally stopped being surprised by the in some cases 'cheapness' of material choices, and components, and construction technique - just too many people are more interested in new and flashy, with a monthly payment they can afford. And many just don't take the time to get educated between say a Foretravel/Country Coach/Beaver/Executive/Etc vs a Flair/Storm/Alegro/Phaeton/Hurricane/Etc.
Quality by many, and final inspection, are left to the dealers and or the buyer to sort out...
Depending upon the budget point that someone is willing to spend, sometimes it is a better move to drop years to stay within budget, and buy the highest quality coach that meets your needs that you can find.
And opinions of course, vary ! I've shared some of mine..
Best,
Smitty
__________________
07 Country Coach Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600
Roo II was our 04 Country Coach Allure 40'
OnDRoad for The JRNY! Enjoy life...
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08-28-2016, 04:21 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club Texas Boomers Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Fulltime Traveler
Posts: 1,041
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All manufacturers are different in some ways, but pretty much the same in most ways I think. They want to keep their prices down, so scrimp in many ways, and don't seem to realize that another $5 spent may be what it takes to make a customer happy and recommend them to others. I have spent hundreds of dollars having accessories installed aftermarket that the manufacturer could have done for $50 if done during the manufacturing process. And I find that they are doing what car manufacturers have been doing for over 25 years now, moving more and more options to standard equipment, and keeping ordering options down to just a few items. Manufacturers (except for Nexus) don't want to be bothered with customizing orders or dealing with a long list of options. And then they seem to do some really goofy things. I was told by Forest River that is how they keep their prices down - making all units pretty much same.
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08-28-2016, 04:32 PM
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#10
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Moderator Emeritus
Monaco Owners Club Texas Boomers Club
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 13,426
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I'm surprised they used flat head screws since they can't be driven with an air or electric driver.
__________________
Dennis and Katherine
2000 Monaco Dynasty
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08-28-2016, 04:33 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
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I wonder if Tiffin coaches are no better in the QC dept than any other similarly priced coach. Perhaps their better than average reputation comes from better than average customer support.
__________________
Tim
Leesburg, FL '07 American Tradition 40Z Cummins 400 ISL
Towing a '14 Honda CRV Both sold
2021 Vanleigh Beacon 41LKB 5th wheel
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08-28-2016, 04:34 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahicks
I think this is much less about design and engineering, and way more about workmanship and QC.
Even if there was a "newbie" using the wrong screw on the assembly line, there should have been an inspector that could have gone up the line and "schooled" the assembler - assuming he/she knew any better.
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Well since the issue transcends three model years, I don't think it is a "newbie" or a lazy inspector. I think it is what they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paz
AggieDad, I can see why you wouldn't want to use flat head screws in thin sheet metal because the heads may pull through. Do you know what are the guidelines for minimum metal thickness to be able to use flat head screws?
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It's pretty fundamental. When using a flathead screw, use a screw size such that the screw head is flush with the surface after countersinking. If that can't be done either screw size is too large or the material too thin. If so, there are alternatives such as finish washers or pan-head screws. However, while these will look finished, neither will be flush - but they probably don't need to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiesta48
I've fixed almost 130 mfger screwups. And made another 60 improvements. 1 1/2 Yr old motorhome. As long as the chassis is good, the 130 are trival and cheap to fix. Anything on the chassis is hundreds to thousands. Worry about significant things.
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As I mentioned in my original post, this is a trivial fix. And like you, I have done any number of fixes and changes on my Winnie (although I am not brave enough to keep count).
My problem is simply this: If the obvious can't be done correctly, what is happening where it can't be seen? This wasn't a $60,000 entry level Class C, this was a $200,000 Tiffin Class A diesel. Tiffin is supposedly the best of the "everyday" RVs.
__________________
Don Simmons
2006 Winnebago Voyage 33V Pushed by a 2014 Chevrolet Captiva
Visit us at Travels With Linda
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08-28-2016, 04:44 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Enjoying the Western States!
Posts: 19,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV Vagabond
All manufacturers are different in some ways, but pretty much the same in most ways I think. They want to keep their prices down, so scrimp in many ways, and don't seem to realize that another $5 spent may be what it takes to make a customer happy and recommend them to others. .......... Manufacturers (except for Nexus) don't want to be bothered with customizing orders or dealing with a long list of options.
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I wouldn't make a generalization of 'ALL'.
Newmar isn't in that category and has been around a long time.
Building a Newmar take days, not hours like the mass-produced RVs. All levels of Newmar are built on the same production line so they all get the same builders working on it. If something farther down the line is incorrect, it's sent back to the one who did it for correction. At the end it is put through many tests to make sure everything is working as it should.
We had over 100 customs on our build list. Many were simple like more outlets, more lighting, different lighting, etc. but a few were major. They will do almost anything you'd want as long as it doesn't involve a structural change.
__________________
Full-timed for 16 Years . . .
Traveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Diesel
& 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th wheel
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08-28-2016, 06:08 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Tiffin Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twogypsies
I wouldn't make a generalization of 'ALL'.
Newmar isn't in that category and has been around a long time.
Building a Newmar take days, not hours like the mass-produced RVs. All levels of Newmar are built on the same production line so they all get the same builders working on it. If something farther down the line is incorrect, it's sent back to the one who did it for correction. At the end it is put through many tests to make sure everything is working as it should.
We had over 100 customs on our build list. Many were simple like more outlets, more lighting, different lighting, etc. but a few were major. They will do almost anything you'd want as long as it doesn't involve a structural change.
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Not sure what manufacturers assemble a motorhome in hours. Watched my Tiffin Phaeton get built. Started on November 30th and completed on December 18th, which was 1 day ahead of the published schedule. Allegro gasers, Phaetons and Allegro Busses are all made on the same assembly line. Only the Breeze deviated from the main assembly line. Final inspection and testing took 2 days, which a hand full of minor issues were fixed. Have it 7 months now and 8000 miles. Had total of 5 minor issues that my dealer repaired within a week.
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