Where are the designers & engineers?

[twogypsies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMJrRQ3SVk

Jayco is done in hours.

[curtsr]

Originally Posted by twogypsies

Jayco is done in hours.

That's not a motorhome. But do agree you can't build even the smallest of rvs with quality in 1 day.

[Atom Ant]

I noticed the QA inspection at the end - he watched as it drove out the door

I would disagree that it is a competitive market and that low prices drive down quality. Who are we trying to fool - there are no low prices associated with RVs, or airline tickets, or anything else- the market is and always has been what the market will bare, and RVs are more expensive than they have ever been or ever should be.

Take a look at profits! When 50% of a companies revenue goes out to the top 5 in bonuses and salary, yet the workers have to fight for a 2% raise and production has to continuously look for ways to cut costs, it boils down to nothing but greed. I'm sad to say, but anymore its the American Way! Didn't used to be. A business owner took pride in his growth and contribution to the market, now its rip and run.

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by Smitty77

Don't want to sidetrack this as one of those "We all caused this, by forcing the manufactures to reach price points that we'd be willing to pay."

Many of the manufactures that did not cut corners, both designing and building things with better materials, are no longer with us.

Tiffin, Fleetwood, Etc. have had to find a balance between material choices, design, labor expenses vs costs that the public is willing to pay for. Some, again like Fleetwood and Tiffen, have enough depth that they have entry/mid/upper end coaches. (Zephyr and American Coach). They cost more, and their volume of unit production or lower.

I personally stopped being surprised by the in some cases 'cheapness' of material choices, and components, and construction technique - just too many people are more interested in new and flashy, with a monthly payment they can afford. And many just don't take the time to get educated between say a Foretravel/Country Coach/Beaver/Executive/Etc vs a Flair/Storm/Alegro/Phaeton/Hurricane/Etc.

Quality by many, and final inspection, are left to the dealers and or the buyer to sort out...

Depending upon the budget point that someone is willing to spend, sometimes it is a better move to drop years to stay within budget, and buy the highest quality coach that meets your needs that you can find.

And opinions of course, vary! I've shared some of mine..

Best,
Smitty

I guess this is indicative of what would happen if MSRP was actually the price you had to pay for a unit. Perhaps the MSRP was the realistic price at one time and the 30% we all expect to be reduced is the manufacturing shortcuts and using the inappropriate screws.

[ahicks]

From any practical stand point I can think of, there is no difference in cost between using the correct vs. incorrect screw head for the application at hand.

[USMCRET]

I'm really trying to appreciate the issue here, but failing miserably.

Let's assume flat head screws are the incorrect application. What can go wrong? Is there a reported quality issue that Tiffin is ignoring? Just guessing, but probably not.

Tiffin most likely isn't manufacturing the shower doors, but buying them from a manufacturer and assembling them with the provided hardware. I'm sure that if this was causing an issue, they would either not buy the doors or substitute some other screw when assembling them.

It is a stretch to extrapolate this issue to Tiffin QC on the whole.

[paz]

Originally Posted by USMCRET

I'm really trying to appreciate the issue here, but failing miserably.

Let's assume flat head screws are the incorrect application. What can go wrong? Is there a reported quality issue that Tiffin is ignoring? Just guessing, but probably not.

Tiffin most likely isn't manufacturing the shower doors, but buying them from a manufacturer and assembling them with the provided hardware. I'm sure that if this was causing an issue, they would either not buy the doors or substitute some other screw when assembling them.

It is a stretch to extrapolate this issue to Tiffin QC on the whole.

I agree wholeheartedly, except I doubt the flat head screws are really incorrect for the application in the first place. The hinges for the shower door have to be fairly substantial because the door contains a piece of tempered glass and is relatively heavy. The material used for the hinges is therefore probably thick enough for countersinking for flat head screws.

We had a Tiffin motorhome that was 10 years old when we traded it. We used it full-time for 9 of those 10 years. I don't remember what kind of hinges were used on the shower door, but the door never sagged in all that time, and it opened and closed as well on the last day as it did on the first day we got it.

[ahicks]

Admitted, this may seem anal to some, but somebody that takes pride in their work will notice things like this, where the wrong/incorrect screw type has been selected for an install of any kind. It really isn't that big a deal to a lot of people.

It's not about cost, or function. It's about workmanship, where pride in the finished product is a big deal....

Kind of like a sloppy weld. It can be as strong as any, but compared to one done properly, the sloppy one looks like hell.

[AggieDad]

Originally Posted by paz

I agree wholeheartedly, except I doubt the flat head screws are really incorrect for the application in the first place. The hinges for the shower door have to be fairly substantial because the door contains a piece of tempered glass and is relatively heavy. The material used for the hinges is therefore probably thick enough for countersinking for flat head screws.

We had a Tiffin motorhome that was 10 years old when we traded it. We used it full-time for 9 of those 10 years. I don't remember what kind of hinges were used on the shower door, but the door never sagged in all that time, and it opened and closed as well on the last day as it did on the first day we got it.

Flathead screws are not necessarily incorrect. Flathead screws that are not flush are incorrect.

My only point was the question of: if this, then what shortcuts are there that I can't see?

Think about it. Most all problems with RVs are assembly or design related - not supplier related. So, to me, it makes sense to look at care of assembly when I look at a coach.

If the choice of screw doesn't bother you, then that's okay. Your focus is elsewhere. My focus tends toward minor issues that may indicate other things. It is really just a "horses for courses" kind of thing.

[paz]

Originally Posted by AggieDad

Flathead screws are not necessarily incorrect. Flathead screws that are not flush are incorrect...

I guess I misunderstood because I didn't see where you said in your original post the screw heads weren't flush. You originally said, "the hinge was attached with flathead screws which are not correct for attaching sheetmetal." You didn't say either the screws or the countersunk holes were the wrong size.

[dieselclacker]

[aguablanco]

I am certainly no apologist for the RV industry. However, why is the screw in question the wrong type to use? And, more importantly, on what do you base that opinion? Not trying to start and argument, just curious as to your thoughts.
RichH

[AggieDad]

Originally Posted by paz

I guess I misunderstood because I didn't see where you said in your original post the screw heads weren't flush. You originally said, "the hinge was attached with flathead screws which are not correct for attaching sheetmetal." You didn't say either the screws or the countersunk holes were the wrong size.

You're right. I neglected to say they were not flush. I proofread the blinkin' thing more than once, but missed that omission each time. My apologies.

[RV Vagabond]

Originally Posted by twogypsies

I wouldn't make a generalization of 'ALL'.

Newmar isn't in that category and has been around a long time.

Building a Newmar take days, not hours like the mass-produced RVs. All levels of Newmar are built on the same production line so they all get the same builders working on it. If something farther down the line is incorrect, it's sent back to the one who did it for correction. At the end it is put through many tests to make sure everything is working as it should.

We had over 100 customs on our build list. Many were simple like more outlets, more lighting, different lighting, etc. but a few were major. They will do almost anything you'd want as long as it doesn't involve a structural change.

Then my apologies go to Newmar. I have personal experience with only Winnebago and for a $215,000 MSRP coach, I am surprised at so many little things that they could have improved for just a few more dollars. I have heard such similar complaints from many other model/make owners here on IRV2. I almost bought a Nexus who is really good about customer satisfaction, but the price scared me off.