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Old 04-14-2015, 05:05 PM   #15
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I agree with many who post we expect champagne on a beer budget. Even champagne drinkers will find a bottle that has gone flat every once in a while.

The problem is we watch too much reality TV where they show the "lifestyles of the rich and famous" or Donald Trumps airplane or some sheiks beach house or some football stars bachelor pad. And we want our slice of the pie but we want to get the best deal because we cannot afford it or do not want to spend the money.
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Old 04-14-2015, 05:20 PM   #16
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I am continually amazed at the amount of misinformation that gets written about the causes of poor quality in the RV industry.

Let me start by saying that I worked as a Director of Quality Assurance in the medical device industry for many years. I have learned a great deal about the causes of poor quality.

Poor quality IS NOT caused by sloppy workers who don't care. It is not caused by poorly trained workers. It is not caused by the desire to maximize profits.

Before quality can be discussed in any meaningful way we need to have a definition of quality. To most quality professionals, quality is not a measure of "goodness." Rather, it is a measure of conformance to specifications. Where there are no detailed specifications (such as in the RV industry), the result is not poor quality. Rather, it is no quality. The concept simply doesn't apply.

The root cause of what we perceive as poor quality is that RVs are not mass produced. Instead, they are individually hand crafted. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that each manufacturer has too many models with too many options. The individual worker probably never produces the same thing twice in a row.

In the auto industry, for example, every part has a specification. Every single piece of wire is specified as to overall length, strip length, wire gauge, insulation color and type, etc. In the RV industry, he knows that he needs to run a wire from here to there. If is happens to be a little long, so it will rub, or a little short so that it is under tension and will eventually pull out. so be it. There is no drawing that he can refer to and look up the required length.

As for the quest to maximize profits, there is a maxim among quality professionals that "Quality is Free." In virtually case, any company in any industry experiences a reduction in overall costs when they implement a real quality system. It is unfortunate that the RV industry hasn't learnde that yet.

Jorl
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:24 PM   #17
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It would be interesting to know what the problems were that you saw.
Maybe attention to detail is a more descriptive word ..... things like ... screws missing the hold the back end of drawer rails ... wood (cardboard) covers in what you mite call traffic areas that weren't secured properly, and should certainly have a better material .... fabric seams the were not sewn to the finished edge .... just to name a few .... as I stated earlier, dumb stuff ... These TTs can not be expected to have real wood and materials like you would find in MHs due to weight restrictions and more importantly price point ... but at least the installations should the completed with a bit higher lever of detail ....... IMO !!!
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:45 PM   #18
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FWIW - pure speculation - I have had my fingers in a lot of wood, metal and fiberglass fab. My SO sews among other things. We both cook. We are constantly amazed at what folks try to sell us that we look at and find massive cosmetic and sometimes structural problems but they do not even see. I have to wonder where most workers today would get the training we have at how things should be done. I even wonder whether their management has it. We learned most of it in school when we were children, in the military, and/or first jobs. None of that exists on a large scale anymore. The schools dropped shop and home economics in favor of technology. No real shop anymore. Nothing to replace it but an attitude that hand work is somehow demeaning. Then we wonder why people do not do quality work. I bet they think they do. We older folks just know better.
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:50 PM   #19
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I really don't think that saying there is no standards is an excuse for how this switch was wired. And I don't think it would ever be caught during an inspection because a quality control guy would not be taking things apart to inspect them.

It would be a simple matter to train someone on how to crimp a terminal onto a wire properly.

I found this when replacing the switch because the bulb was burned out.

Now maybe I should have used the word "Workmanship" instead of quality.
On a lower cost coach, I expect thinner wood for the cabinets, lighter grade materials.
But I also expect a proper fit, regardless of the material cost. No reason to only install 2 screws when there are 4 mounting holes.

Dan
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:48 AM   #20
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Betr2Trvl,
You made some great points from the manufacturers point of view. We should all deal with what we have and what we can afford.
We bought a gasser MH. I'm constantly working to make it better and put our finger print on it to make it our own. When looking for a manufacturer we decided that WBGO did a decent job of building. We went to the factory and saw them being built. For the most part I was impressed. They are using some state of the art cookie cutters to make things to a consistent higher standard. They cut fabric, upholstery material and wall covers using water jet technology. That takes the less than perfect worker out of the equation and keeps things to a higher consistent standard.

To J Birders point about quality in the RV industry. WBGO is using some standards in their builds and in my mind that is what sets them part. They do not use twist wire ties (as used in your homes) to secure two wires together as do most TT manufacturers. These will shake apart with road bumps. They hand stitch upholstery but the pieces are cut on a water jet machine. The results are obvious.

There's a series on the Discovery channel (How It's Made) on high end sports cars. WOW!! To watch those guys/gals make by hand these one off a kind vehicles is something to see. To watch them stitch and fit the leather seats is awesome. But who can afford them???

Your points are well made.

nothermark, Spoken like an older person who has done the hard stuff as I (at 71 years old) and many others have. Yes quality is effected by the worker. I've worked the assembly lines at GM and in steel mills. It sucks and it's hard work. But I did my best because I learned at home and in the AF that it is expected of me. I got in trouble at the steel mills because I WORKED. The Foreman appreciated what I did but I made the other guys look bad (unions) because I worked.

TeJay
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:51 AM   #21
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ditto

I have responded several times to posts about quality of RV's in general so will not bother again except to say that when we recently bought a new RV the dealer tech who was getting the unit ready told me when I asked about RV quality control, that he was the quality control and that there were always at least several things wrong with each unit that he worked on. So, it seems to me that manufacurers expect this and don't wory about it because we keep on buying. Again, someday a manufacurer will work on quality and, like the Japanese auto manufacturers did, will force the rest of the market to improve. Until then, you'd better be handy to own any RV because there is always something going wrong. Either that or spend a lot of time at the dealer.
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Old 04-15-2015, 09:25 AM   #22
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Poor quality IS NOT caused by sloppy workers who don't care. It is not caused by poorly trained workers. It is not caused by the desire to maximize profits.

Jorl
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this comment but not in respect to singling out the RV industry.

I work with 17 other mechanics in the warehouse and production industry and on a daily basis and I am constantly amazed at the work my boss makes me go back and fix due to flat sloppy work from lazy co-workers. It is NOT a training issue, it is pure laziness and unwillingness to push one's self to improve upon one's skills and take pride in their job, no matter what it is. It is trying to hurry and check off a particular job so they can screw off until the shift ends and they can head off to sit on their butts the remainder of the night. Our company is all for saving money but they give plenty of time to repair things properly that there is no reason to perform shoddy repairs. Actually they are more liberal on times to perform tasks than they should be.

It bothers me that as a society today in the workforce we are not supposed to tell people they are doing a bad job, we want them to feel "good" at their jobs so they are happy. What a load of tripe. If people are not doing their jobs properly because they choose not to and pawn that work off on their co-workers, guess what??? I don't want them to feel "good" at work or be happy at work. I want them to feel like ****, not have someone hold their hand and lead them step by step, process by process until they "get it". They were hired based on the skills they said they possessed and then when they get in the door those skills were exagerated and now they have to be trained on every single little detail of their job. I have had no formal training and have pushed myself to exceed in every aspect of my job and will continue to learn and progress until the day I am in a box.

One of my co-workers was recently written up because he signed off on a piece of equipment that he had performed a PM on where he missed over half of the grease zirks. My boss gave him a written warning and he wined to HR which then repremanded my boss because "he didn't know he was supposed to grease all of the grease zirks" and was not "trained on that particular piece of equipment." My hell he said he worked on those day in and day out at his previous place of employment and there is a step by step, item by item checklist to follow for the pure intent of avoiding the possibility of missing something.

Sorry for the rant but when I hear the excuses for some American worker's lack of quality in their work these days if frustrates me to no end. I am not bashing America by any means, I am simply stating that as a society today we have become soft in the "holding people accountable" department. We want to think we are the best at everything and trust me we are not. Too many loop holes in the system that merely allow poor quality to slip through the gaps and no one dares correct anyone because they will be in the hot seat.

When my wife and I bought all of our coaches I knew it would take a while to get them up to my standards and expectations. That was a given and I didn't bitch about it because I know how and I am and just plan accordingly.

Rant over.

Mike.
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Old 04-15-2015, 10:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmotorsports View Post
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this comment but not in respect to singling out the RV industry.

I work with 17 other mechanics in the warehouse and production industry and on a daily basis and I am constantly amazed at the work my boss makes me go back and fix due to flat sloppy work from lazy co-workers. It is NOT a training issue, it is pure laziness and unwillingness to push one's self to improve upon one's skills and take pride in their job, no matter what it is. It is trying to hurry and check off a particular job so they can screw off until the shift ends and they can head off to sit on their butts the remainder of the night. Our company is all for saving money but they give plenty of time to repair things properly that there is no reason to perform shoddy repairs. Actually they are more liberal on times to perform tasks than they should be.

It bothers me that as a society today in the workforce we are not supposed to tell people they are doing a bad job, we want them to feel "good" at their jobs so they are happy. What a load of tripe. If people are not doing their jobs properly because they choose not to and pawn that work off on their co-workers, guess what??? I don't want them to feel "good" at work or be happy at work. I want them to feel like ****, not have someone hold their hand and lead them step by step, process by process until they "get it". They were hired based on the skills they said they possessed and then when they get in the door those skills were exagerated and now they have to be trained on every single little detail of their job. I have had no formal training and have pushed myself to exceed in every aspect of my job and will continue to learn and progress until the day I am in a box.

One of my co-workers was recently written up because he signed off on a piece of equipment that he had performed a PM on where he missed over half of the grease zirks. My boss gave him a written warning and he wined to HR which then repremanded my boss because "he didn't know he was supposed to grease all of the grease zirks" and was not "trained on that particular piece of equipment." My hell he said he worked on those day in and day out at his previous place of employment and there is a step by step, item by item checklist to follow for the pure intent of avoiding the possibility of missing something.

Sorry for the rant but when I hear the excuses for some American worker's lack of quality in their work these days if frustrates me to no end. I am not bashing America by any means, I am simply stating that as a society today we have become soft in the "holding people accountable" department. We want to think we are the best at everything and trust me we are not. Too many loop holes in the system that merely allow poor quality to slip through the gaps and no one dares correct anyone because they will be in the hot seat.

When my wife and I bought all of our coaches I knew it would take a while to get them up to my standards and expectations. That was a given and I didn't bitch about it because I know how and I am and just plan accordingly.

Rant over.

Mike.
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At this time in our history, you can't even get a drive thru window order correct 3 out of 5 times.

I'm not asking for high end items in my coach. Just someone to take care installing it.
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Old 04-15-2015, 10:44 AM   #24
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Sorry for the rant but when I hear the excuses for some American worker's lack of quality in their work these days if frustrates me to no end. I am not bashing America by any means, I am simply stating that as a society today we have become soft in the "holding people accountable" department. We want to think we are the best at everything and trust me we are not.

Mike.
I will add, that this is not only on the "factory floor" or "take out window", but in the glass towers as well, and reinforced by the actions of management throught the boards of directors, and driven by the idea that everyone wants to pay less for everything they buy from someone else. I'll leave it at that........
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Old 04-15-2015, 11:14 AM   #25
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Mike - good rant.
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Old 04-15-2015, 11:19 AM   #26
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Mike, you are very right. And I'll add one more thing to that. We have too many people that do things at their job because "that's the way it has always been done". I can't stand it when people say that. If an employee knows something is wrong, they should report the issue and provide solutions to the problem. They don't realize that it is in their best interest to improve products, processes, standards, etc., or they may realize it and simply don't care.
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Old 04-15-2015, 11:44 AM   #27
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Mike, you are very right. And I'll add one more thing to that. We have too many people that do things at their job because "that's the way it has always been done". I can't stand it when people say that. If an employee knows something is wrong, they should report the issue and provide solutions to the problem. They don't realize that it is in their best interest to improve products, processes, standards, etc., or they may realize it and simply don't care.
But when management doesn't want to listen (they may say they want to listen, but won't really act on it) and forbid, spend a buck to improve a process because it will impact the quarterly profits, the the front line people give up, as well as those caught in the middle.
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Old 04-15-2015, 11:48 AM   #28
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Might as well ask why people steal and cheat while we're at it. Ultimately, it falls on the consumer. People don't ask enough questions, don't do enough research or complain enough when something isn't up to an acceptable standard. If it were up to me, I would put a financial penalty on all manufacturers. Say $20.00 per day for each day a new RV is being repaired for quality control issues in the first year. Payable directly to the purchaser. That might get their attention and it would also make them light a fire under their dealers as well. I don't know how many times we read on here about a dealer who was quite eager to sell a unit and take your money but thereafter drags their heels when it comes to fixing problems and fixing them properly.
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