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Old 04-15-2015, 11:50 AM   #29
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Sorry for the rant guys. I just see the HR department at our company coddle way too much to employees who simply know how to play the system and seem to always be the "victim". I know it is the way of the world anymore and I have tried to learn to accept it and just worry about myself and my own workmanship, however, it seems when people try to rationalize the poor work habits/issues and place the blame onto management because they obviously haven't been trained properly it just gets under my skin. I think there may be some instances where that happens but I can guarantee in my work force it is pure laziness and lack of pride.

I try not to respond to topics like this because I understand I am probably more anal about things than most but I am self aware enough to just deal with the quality issues on my own vs. complaining about them. Plus I get so worked up about the "entitlement" attitude in our society these days, so I apologize for my rant.

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Old 04-15-2015, 06:16 PM   #30
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Working 35 years, both with the tools and in management (both company and union management) in an industry that had very stringent quality control and very well trained and paid trade workers, I learned that contractors and customers get the quality they want. We could go real fast and do some repairs later or just go fast and have no repairs: it was management's choice, usually they wanted no repairs. I'm talking about contractors like Bechtel, Combustion Engineering, Westinghouse, Nooter and Chicago Bridge and customers such as refineries, chemical plants and nuclear and fossil power plants.

I reckon RVs aren't built as painstakingly as power houses. ;-) But I'll betcha if the RV companies wanted better quality they'd get it--you simply supply better quality materials, train your hands well and tell them to slow down a little and get it right. And check to see it is right. It really isn't very hard, IF it's what you want to do. But is costs.
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:43 PM   #31
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Ok my turn. After 45 years in aviation I have seen it go downhill fast. It started in the early 90s. One of you post that they should tell the boss and well I did and he was vp of hr. What happen I got early retirement and the bad guys kept their jobs but was put under watch. I spent 22 years with that company and would I do it again NO. After that I worked for different aviation company's and they were the same just get it out the door. The people they have now wants to be managers and not do their work now and some makes it because guys like me just throws our hands up and walk away. Will I ever fly again that is a big NO. The good ones are retiring now like me and we see the results. And guys some of these people is our own kids. It's called you owe me generation. I have a son in-law that is that way. I will get off the soap box now. Who's next


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Old 04-15-2015, 06:46 PM   #32
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Some of you guys talk you're the only guy who ever hit a lick.


As an aside: keep in mind that people value hard work or a nice job <until> they have to pay for it.
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:45 PM   #33
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Some of you guys talk you're the only guy who ever hit a lick.


As an aside: keep in mind that people value hard work or a nice job <until> they have to pay for it.

Not true
It's the you owe me people I have problem with. And we had to fix their screw ups. If people would take pride in there work and do the job right the first time. I have seen so much smoke and mirrors. I tied my butt to my work and would fly in it. These sob refuses to fly. Now would you fly in it after hearing that and you could not make them. The customers was spending over 3 million for these aircraft. I was flown all over to fix these aircraft and had to fix there screw ups. I have been on both sides of the bridge and you know by talk to whom ever is doing the work if they care or not. Back off my soap box.


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Old 04-15-2015, 07:55 PM   #34
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Old 04-16-2015, 08:44 AM   #35
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Really great responses. Enjoyed very much the read and thanks to all who responded, ranted or what ever you want to call it. I've talked about this stuff for so long it hurts. Here's part of the story. It's liberalism, the 60's feel good generation, and nobody willing to hold people accountable for their actions.
Just yesterday I was talking to one of my students who graduated the same year I retired 2006. He's working for the same school system in grounds maintenance. He told me about a young man he knew who's Dad bought him a brand new F-150 for this graduation. The kid had no skin in the game. He paid for no insurance, no fuel and no truck payments. Just last month he splattered his brains all over the windshield by driving drunk and not wearing his seat belt. No consequences (except he lost his life) and no responsibilities.

Society messed up when every kid had to get a medal for showing up . When we could not flunk kids for not doing their work. When we couldn't complain about poor quality work coming from our co-workers. When we couldn't do things that might hurt a kids self-esteem. The A,B,C,D,F system rewards kids for doing average and below average work. It matters not if you get an A or a D you both get CREDIT. A lot of kids these days only want to do enough to GET CREDIT. I always told students who thought that way they would not pass my class. They usually dropped. When those (just get by ) kids get jobs they do the same thing and the system lets them.

Here's just a few small things that i did to change things. My students had two weekly assignments. Those assignments had to be complete and on time. If they were not they got ZERO for a grade.
1. Hand written list of 25 automotive definitions. If they turned in 24 they got ZERO.
2. A hand written 8-1/2" X 11" piece of paper relating any story about any mechanical experience they had that week. If the paper was not filled in completely they got ZERO.

When they worked in the lab the work had to meet my expectations, done in a timely manner, all tools put away and the area cleaned or they got a ZERO.
Some call that PASS FAIL. I called it getting ready for a job. My administration told me often that they got more calls from upset parents than from any other teacher at the HS. I simply told them that then I must be doing my job. When I retired they shut the program down.

[Moderator Edit]

Almost everything that you good folks pointed to as the problem is related to this. Not holding individuals accountable or responsible for their actions. There is no doubt in my mind.

TeJay
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Old 04-16-2015, 11:44 AM   #36
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Corporations are formed with one of the main reasons being that people can thus avoid personal responsibility, yet I don't think many people consider them liberal institutions.

A consistent conservative would consider those who successfully shirk work as winners in an economic competition, since all economic relationships are competitions with each participant in the relationship seeking to get the most benefit for the least cost. Thus in an employment relationship employers seek the most work for the least pay, and it's therefore fitting and natural that a worker seeks the least work for the most pay. Thus those who are able to shirk work yet keep their jobs should be applauded by free market libertarians as shrewd players of the game. One can argue that those who resent such shirking are merely envious of those who succeed.
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Old 04-16-2015, 12:14 PM   #37
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Corporations are formed with one of the main reasons being that people can thus avoid personal responsibility, yet I don't think many people consider them liberal institutions.

A consistent conservative would consider those who successfully shirk work as winners in an economic competition, since all economic relationships are competitions with each participant in the relationship seeking to get the most benefit for the least cost. Thus in an employment relationship employers seek the most work for the least pay, and it's therefore fitting and natural that a worker seeks the least work for the most pay. Thus those who are able to shirk work yet keep their jobs should be applauded by free market libertarians as shrewd players of the game. One can argue that those who resent such shirking are merely envious of those who succeed.
HUH! I am a conservative an I and almost all my fellow workers at Delta Air Lines looked down on the complaining, lazy, nothing is never enough, guys there. We got some big raises and the only ones to complain were the ones who used all their sick leave, and did just enough to get by. I never knew a conservative who did not look up to the hard workers.
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Old 04-16-2015, 01:28 PM   #38
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I was raised to do the best job I can. Give the person who hired you your best efforts. That's called personal responsibility. The wages we receive is NEVER I say NEVER going to be ENOUGH. You will almost always spend what you make. So going to work should be about doing your best and taking pride in a job well done. That's how it was for me because that's how I was raised. My Mom and DAD set that example for all of us kids. They worked hard, struggled and were thankful to have the opportunity. As somebody else coined the phrase, "Working flipping burgers is not a JOB but an OPPORTUNITY." Now the burger flippers these days want $15 an hour. I'm not responsible for the dismal economy. Those job opportunities were never intended as a career (except for a few bosses) or for the workers to buy a home and send their kids to college. There are fewer parents like my folks and more of the others. Get by with the least you can do for the most $$$$. We are reaping what we are sowing.

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Old 04-16-2015, 05:29 PM   #39
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Considering that American MBA programs often teach that management is a separate skill so the manager does not need the skills of the people he manages but needs the skill of a manager one has to wonder who is supposed to do the training.

FWIW as another old retired light blue collar worker I watched the scene change from training and educating when I started to no training unless it was job specific when I retired. The simple fact is American business tries to dump anyone who needs training and hire somebody who has either run up their own debt or had some other employer do the training. That worked for a while until the folks left paying the bill stopped too.
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Old 04-16-2015, 07:16 PM   #40
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Excellent points.

While I am new to all this, the whining about quality is really getting old to me already (you can also add the gas/diesel and new/used debates as well). As you noted above, who is going to pay $400k for a 30' coach; for $400k people want a 40'+ DP with heated tile floors, and all sorts of bells and whistles.

And things are not the way they used to be, nor will they be again. We all want 4 flat screen TVs for $500 each, not 1 for $2000 that was made with pride by your neighbor. You can't even buy / build a high quality small house anymore either (we have tried......). We have made our beds, so get used to it.

So It seems to me that a lot of people have some out of whack expectations, and like to spread thier misery (people that are not "happy" unless they are unhappy). Oh, it would be "nice" to get a perfect MH, but it is not going to happen any more than getting a perfect new house . Or any other complex system, particularly when is mobile. Multi million dollar ships, planes, heavy equipment, etc. have extensive break in periods, many times with factory reps present for extended periods.

And quit the comparisons to Honda, etc. When you are building 10s of thousands of cookie cutter bread boxes every day the QC expenses are monitized over hundreds of thousands of vehicles per year, not 1,000. And guess what, they all get bad components too, witness all the recalls.

And as I have referenced before, go to any high end car forum (BMW, Porsche, etc.) and you'll get similar whining. People want an $80k car to have all the features of the $140k car, and beleive me, there are inherent quality issues with all the exotics too, and in many cases it is the volume factor as well; there are things that you just can not address when you are building handfulls vs. huge volumes. And yes, you'll find the fine coach leather pulling away on a dashboard, a system under engineered that fails prematurely, etc.

Is my new coach perfect, no. A couple things that could have been better, but leaving well enough alone - we are going to use it, enjoy it, and not let little things get to me - that is not what life is about at this point and I am not about to let out of whack expectations ruin the experience for me.

Wow, my first pontification on irv2!

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Old 04-16-2015, 10:23 PM   #41
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Might as well ask why people steal and cheat while we're at it. Ultimately, it falls on the consumer. People don't ask enough questions, don't do enough research or complain enough when something isn't up to an acceptable standard. If it were up to me, I would put a financial penalty on all manufacturers. Say $20.00 per day for each day a new RV is being repaired for quality control issues in the first year. Payable directly to the purchaser. That might get their attention and it would also make them light a fire under their dealers as well. I don't know how many times we read on here about a dealer who was quite eager to sell a unit and take your money but thereafter drags their heels when it comes to fixing problems and fixing them properly.
Good idea. If we all brought this to our federal representative we might get some action.
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Old 04-17-2015, 12:30 AM   #42
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I was raised to do the best job I can. Give the person who hired you your best efforts. That's called personal responsibility. The wages we receive is NEVER I say NEVER going to be ENOUGH. You will almost always spend what you make. So going to work should be about doing your best and taking pride in a job well done. That's how it was for me because that's how I was raised. My Mom and DAD set that example for all of us kids. They worked hard, struggled and were thankful to have the opportunity. As somebody else coined the phrase, "Working flipping burgers is not a JOB but an OPPORTUNITY." Now the burger flippers these days want $15 an hour. I'm not responsible for the dismal economy. Those job opportunities were never intended as a career (except for a few bosses) or for the workers to buy a home and send their kids to college. There are fewer parents like my folks and more of the others. Get by with the least you can do for the most $$$$. We are reaping what we are sowing.

TeJay

X2 Tejay, I was raised the same way and the bottom line it's all about respect and appreciation. Those who work hard usually end up getting where they want to, and they never feel a sense of entitlement. Those are the ones you want working on anything you own or any service you need. Like you said even if they didn't get rich, there's nothing that could compromise their pride in their work and accomplishments. If it were not for the way my parents raised me I wouldn't have been as successful as I have been and able to accomplish what I have. Hard work is way under estimated and most successful people have worked from the bottom upwards.

As a side note the best teachers I ever had in Junior High and High School were the Shop Teachers. And I was always in the AP Classes for the other Academic areas, so going to the shop classes was always fun, and the Shop Teachers always seemed to want to be there. One I had was just like you as far as assignments, which were not meant to be hard as much as to develop responsibility, accountability, and follow through. The bottom line is you use what you learned in those classes everyday in any job or hobby you partake in, unlike a lot of other academic classes. Too bad those classes still aren't available in some schools today, those kids are really missing out.
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