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Old 04-20-2015, 02:24 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald View Post
Who has purchased an operating system for their computer or any software that works as it should? We understand bad product and expect an upgrade every Tuesday.

Who has their computer set to upgrade automatically?
THREAD KILLER ALERT

I won't let my puter do auto upgrades as it works fine. Every time I get a glitch I just restore it.
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Old 04-20-2015, 04:20 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by wa8yxm View Post
Why is there a need to discuss Quality?

Because we the customers have asked for cheaper and cheaper and to make it cheaper company after company has decided to reduce quality and quality control and in many cases (NOTE JUST RV) "Let the customer do the final inspection and fix it under warranty".

That is why need to discuss quality.. Because for too long we have not.

I have nothing more to add to this thread and doubt I will return to it.
It gets really tedious to read post after post from ill informed people who know nothing about quality control, pontificating on the causes of poor quality, based on nothing but their misguided intuition. The quote above is but one of many in this thread (I don't mean to pick on wa8yxm specifically).

Numerous studies have demonstrated that a robust, well planned quality system saves the company significant amounts of money. Anybody who wants to "build it cheaper" embraces quality control. They do not eliminate it.

See http://asq.org/learn-about-quality/c.../overview.html
or Cost of Quality: Not Only Failure Costs
or Quality costs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
for just a few examples. The references at the end of the third link point to many more.

Joel
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Old 04-20-2015, 04:28 PM   #59
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Yap so true
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Old 04-20-2015, 04:52 PM   #60
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For an interesting read on quailty...
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:41 PM   #61
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For an interesting read on quailty...
That is a great book, everyone should read it, It can get slow at times, but when you get to the end you put it all together.....
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:48 PM   #62
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That is a great book, everyone should read it, It can get slow at times, but when you get to the end you put it all together.....
That's debatable... lol..
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:16 PM   #63
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It is called the race to the bottom.

Company a makes a good product and has spent considerable money to design something that can be built with a profit and meets customer expectations for the price level.

Company b comes along and instead of making a better product to attract customers they make a similar product but use lesser quality materials as one way to reduce the cost to produce said product so they could compete with product from company a.

Company a is established so company b uses lower cost to get some buisiness.

Company a responds by driving cost out of their product to compete with company b.

Sometimes it is materials or it could be labor or ...

This can be seen with many products or services.

Worst is when there are abundant supplies of labor with msny lower in abilities than before that results in general payscales in trades dropping to levels to where good folks retire or change leaving lesser skilled folks performing the work for lesser pay with usually lesser skill resulting in many of the quality issues related to labor instead of materials.
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Old 04-20-2015, 11:09 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by J Birder View Post
It gets really tedious to read post after post from ill informed people who know nothing about quality control, pontificating on the causes of poor quality, based on nothing but their misguided intuition. The quote above is but one of many in this thread (I don't mean to pick on wa8yxm specifically).

Numerous studies have demonstrated that a robust, well planned quality system saves the company significant amounts of money. Anybody who wants to "build it cheaper" embraces quality control. They do not eliminate it.

See http://asq.org/learn-about-quality/c.../overview.html
or Cost of Quality: Not Only Failure Costs
or Quality costs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
for just a few examples. The references at the end of the third link point to many more.

Joel

Nobody can argue with "do it right the first time" mantra being cheaper. It's the switching cost as well as "reprogramming" the culture that costs. Smart companies see the benefit, companies with cash make the investment, companies who only see throughput=profit will not change. They see it as too expensive.

It's not free to go from a poor quality culture to a industry leading quality culture. But the investment will pay off.

So, quality costs money, but it saves money.

Everyone is right!!
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:12 AM   #65
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Nobody can argue with "do it right the first time" mantra being cheaper. It's the switching cost as well as "reprogramming" the culture that costs. Smart companies see the benefit, companies with cash make the investment, companies who only see throughput=profit will not change. They see it as too expensive.

It's not free to go from a poor quality culture to a industry leading quality culture. But the investment will pay off.

So, quality costs money, but it saves money.

Everyone is right!!
No. It is not free to go from a poor quality culture to a industry leading quality culture. It can be expensive, but generally is not.

At one point, I went to work as Director of Quality and Regulatory Affairs for a medical device manufacturer that was operating under a consent decree from the FDA. As part of the consent decree, they had hired a consultant who created a "complete" quality system for them.

During my interview, the company president asked what I thought about their new quality system? I told him that "it looks great on paper, is very expensive, and totally ineffective. If you hire me, on my first day, I'll throw your quality manual in the trash, and start from scratch."

I got the job, and in two years, I achieved a clean FDA inspection. The third year, I got ISO 9000 certification. We saw a reduction in scrap, a reduction in rework, and a reduction in warranty costs. In all the quality system was not only inexpensive, it made money.

Unfortunately, it won't work for the RV industry, as currently constituted. The one big expense is the enormous number of drawings, other specifications, and test procedures that need to be created. I would not be surprised to discover that the documentation for my truck outweighs the truck. Actually, that should be an Engineering expense, but that's nit picking.

Ordinarily, all that paper work is not very expensive, because the cost is amortized over many units. The problem is that nobody makes very many of any one model. Therefor, the cost of the documentation per unit will be very high.

Until the industry has a big shake out, I'm afraid that we're going to be stuck doing their QC for them.

Joel
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:44 AM   #66
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I'm afraid that we're going to be stuck doing their QC for them.
That is always going to be the case regardless of how hard a manufacturer tries to achieve perfection, but shouldn't we be debating what happens after we do do their QC for them. If factory QC finds a problem, the problem is fixed before assembly proceeds, but as topic after topic here and on other forums clearly shows, if we the owners find faults even during the handover walkthrough, the process of fixing those faults can go on and on for months and months to the point where is is quite obvious that the dealer/manufacturer has in place a deliberate policy of attrition against the owner rather than doing the right thing and fully compensating the new owner for their inability to provide the owner with what he paid for.

Another non-trivial result of this almost universal policy is that when he comes on to these forums to tell his story, the most vocal responders are the industry apologists whose oft repeated mantra is that a modern motorhome is a sophisticated machine and faults are inevitable and the aggrieved owner should just suck it up and stop complaining.
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:17 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by J Birder View Post
No. It is not free to go from a poor quality culture to a industry leading quality culture. It can be expensive, but generally is not.

At one point, I went to work as Director of Quality and Regulatory Affairs for a medical device manufacturer that was operating under a consent decree from the FDA. As part of the consent decree, they had hired a consultant who created a "complete" quality system for them.

During my interview, the company president asked what I thought about their new quality system? I told him that "it looks great on paper, is very expensive, and totally ineffective. If you hire me, on my first day, I'll throw your quality manual in the trash, and start from scratch."

I got the job, and in two years, I achieved a clean FDA inspection. The third year, I got ISO 9000 certification. We saw a reduction in scrap, a reduction in rework, and a reduction in warranty costs. In all the quality system was not only inexpensive, it made money.

Unfortunately, it won't work for the RV industry, as currently constituted. The one big expense is the enormous number of drawings, other specifications, and test procedures that need to be created. I would not be surprised to discover that the documentation for my truck outweighs the truck. Actually, that should be an Engineering expense, but that's nit picking.

Ordinarily, all that paper work is not very expensive, because the cost is amortized over many units. The problem is that nobody makes very many of any one model. Therefor, the cost of the documentation per unit will be very high.

Until the industry has a big shake out, I'm afraid that we're going to be stuck doing their QC for them.

Joel
Joel, I see you already mentioned why it won't work in the RV industry as well as some other industries so let me preface by saying I have seen many manufacturing facilities and been through many training seminars on Kaizan, Lean Sigma, 5-S and so on. All or bits of all can be applied to most manufacturing processes to eliminate the variables involved with the manufacturing process. I understand what you are saying from a QA/QC standpoint, basically removing all or as many variables as possible and having the processes clearly defined/labeled so that from person to person the process goes on unchanged, thus eliminating any variations in the process. That is what results in high quality and repeatability/uniformity into the manufacturing process.

All that said and understood the RV industry has incorporated quite a lot of those philosophies and processes into the mix but there are still some areas that simply cannot be adapted to work in that fashion.

My comments earlier about the personnel and poor quality workmanship were based on my 27+ years of industrial maintenance, NOT production. I understand and completely agree with your comments about introducing these processes into the production/manufacturing of most items. However, on the maintenance side of things, the majority of the time there are no two break-downs that are the same. Anyone who has been involved with this type of work knows how rediculous the troubleshooting flowcharts are in the equipment manuals. These were written in labratory conditions and NEVER take into account the human factor and the overall environment the equipment they designed was going to be required to function in. This is where the "individual mechanics" skills and technical knowledge must come in to play for diagnosing and then more importantly, the repair itself. THIS is the problem I have with some members of our society and the "entitlement attitude" that is expressed or demonstrated in the workforce today. Many of the so called "skilled" laborors are not as skilled as they think and what I find more disturbing is they have no desire to become better than they were the day before.

When interviewing and involved with the hiring process for maintenance it is very upsetting to see what is available out there today. There are very good and well trained mechanics but most of them are happily employed and their companies are taking pretty good care of them, leaving the not so skilled or trained to be the ones left for the hiring pool. Luckily we have a very low turnover rate but we have gotten a few in that show the reasons really soon why they were unemployed or looking for other employment.

Mike.
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:41 PM   #68
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So much conversation about QC plans and all it takes is for the companies to stop putting shareholders and executives in front of the customer and start appreciating employees. It's a matter of self esteem, putting out a well constructed RV. No excuse for poor workmanship, like it's always been said "it's hard to find good help". Maybe investors should start investing in education for children - their future employees. But, I speaking of common sense, not so common. It doesn't cost more to build it right.
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Old 04-22-2015, 10:42 AM   #69
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Another factor worth noting is perception vs reality. I am not trying to target any one and do not know who said it but someone pointed out that using 2 out of 4 screw holes in a bracket was a sign of poor quality construction. OTOH I have been around testing labs where this would have been evaluated. It is quite possible that given the soft wood and self drilling screws used 4 split the wood, 2 work well. We do not know. There are a lot of choices made we are not privy too so we do not know were a corner was cut vs the best choice made.
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Old 04-22-2015, 01:51 PM   #70
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I've been reading the various comments in this thread and think two things stands out. First there is quality versus non quality and that there is something called quality control.

I was the technical quality control manager and lab manager at a refinery. We had very strict specifications which were measured by even stricter testing, ASTM. I also had an adequate budget to maintain and support our equipment. Every couple years I was asked if there was any new equipment we might need and then a huge amount of money and had to produce a purchase list in 24 hours. I did my own buying. We were state of the art and set the bar for many test procedures and results.

Fines for off spec fuels are 6 to 7 figures. Off spec jet fuel, off spec military jet fuel .... You just couldn't let it happen. DCAS inspectors witnessed each batch. For the 747 that hauled the space shuttle double testing with every test witnessed by the DCAS. We never rounded up a number for any product.

So specifications matter but more importantly testing to prove specifications are met also matters. We were storing on our site foreign gasoline a major bought. It was 87 octane but we measured it in the lab 86.9, and rejected the tank for sales. I retested and retested, 86.9, endured threats from higher higher management but would not sign the spec sheet and offered it to each manager the sheet for them to sign. They wouldn't. They had to reblend at high cost so the tank could make it to the loading dock.

I also discovered that certain tests were not being done, wrote up 3 in 12 hours. That ended. When we lived in Lansing friends who worked the Oldsmobile line would comment about never buying a car built on a Friday wondering how long it would take for a beer can to be found in a door panel. So it's workers and managers too.

Quality can be the use of the right alloy, the right rubber etc., veneer vs. solid wood, weight, weight and more weight.

RV's are complex, a home and a vehicle with many OEM suppliers. I would hope that each individual involved in their manufacture did his best. Problems do exist. Dealers are overwhelmed by the new products, they are pretty simple people - easy to overwhelm.

Maybe the major manufacturers could set up some major regional repair centers, staffed by their people and representatives of their OEM contractors. They could spot issues quickly and make design modifications. They could also train their dealerships service personnel.

Just my thoughts on the issue. Also know what you are buying.
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