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Old 04-23-2015, 07:24 AM   #71
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Why is there even a need to discuss Quality?

Quit making excuses for the industry. It just sounds silly when you do.

Dealers wonder why we come at them with such extreme distrust. Their only goal is to get you to sign. It is a really big joke to call it "quality control". It really should be called let us bamboozle these rubes. Let us see what we can get away with. Let us take advantage of these nice people. There is poor custumer service at every single level of the industry. There is no pride in workmanship. There is no honesty. When you buy, it is then your problem. You get to discover all of the defects on your own. I am surprised they stay in business.

The dealer and manufacturers are too difficult to sue. Lemon laws usually apply only to the chassis and engine.

How about we bring a contract that says something like:

The dealer and manufacturer will pay for any warranty work AND travel/fuel expense AND come pick up the defective unit AND give the owner a loaner.
That if the problem cannot be fixed in 10 days (or so) the buyer gets all of their money back.
That the dealer and manufacturer fixes all known defects before delivery.

They would not sign it.

Is there a class action suit somewhere that we could join?

I think I am going to make some youtube videos, headlined with the dealer's name, coach manufacturer, chassis company, power train and generator names. Maybe that will get their attention.


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Old 04-23-2015, 02:15 PM   #72
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Why do you have an RV then?
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Old 04-24-2015, 08:04 AM   #73
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Frankly, given the choice of getting the price we do or doubling the price to get the quality we want I will mostly side with the price. I am inclined to think we get what we pay for. I can fix most of the little stuff but want to avoid the big problems.
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Old 04-24-2015, 08:15 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by nothermark View Post
Frankly, given the choice of getting the price we do or doubling the price to get the quality (insert immenities) we want I will mostly side with the price. I am inclined to think we get what we pay for. I can fix most of the little stuff but want to avoid the big problems.
This is more or less the reason we chose to go with a used coach vs. buying a new one. We could get a little higher end used one for similar money as a new coach but lower in the lineup. But this is pertaining more to ammenities than actual quality.

My thinking was and has been start with a used somewhat higher end coach and then upgrade, modify, repair what I needed to in order to bring it up to my standards. In all honesty it was cheaper doing that than buying what I consider in my head as a "high end" coach, besided the fact that I couldn't afford what I consider "high end".

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Old 04-24-2015, 08:43 AM   #75
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Frankly, given the choice of getting the price we do or doubling the price to get the quality we want I will mostly side with the price. I am inclined to think we get what we pay for. I can fix most of the little stuff but want to avoid the big problems.
Obviously, you did no take the time to read the rest of this thread before spouting such nonsense. Or is it a case of "my mind is made up. don't bother me with the facts." Do you also believe that the world is flat.

I'll say it louder for you. DECENT QUALITY WOULD NOT DOUBLE THE COST OF RVs. As a mater of fact, it should not increase the manufacturer's cost at all. numerous studies have demonstrated that a modern quality system will reduce costs.

Joel
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Old 04-24-2015, 09:42 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by dvmweb View Post
Quit making excuses for the industry. It just sounds silly when you do.

Dealers wonder why we come at them with such extreme distrust. Their only goal is to get you to sign. It is a really big joke to call it "quality control". It really should be called let us bamboozle these rubes. Let us see what we can get away with. Let us take advantage of these nice people. There is poor custumer service at every single level of the industry. There is no pride in workmanship. There is no honesty. When you buy, it is then your problem. You get to discover all of the defects on your own. I am surprised they stay in business.

The dealer and manufacturers are too difficult to sue. Lemon laws usually apply only to the chassis and engine.

How about we bring a contract that says something like:

The dealer and manufacturer will pay for any warranty work AND travel/fuel expense AND come pick up the defective unit AND give the owner a loaner.
That if the problem cannot be fixed in 10 days (or so) the buyer gets all of their money back.
That the dealer and manufacturer fixes all known defects before delivery.

They would not sign it.

Is there a class action suit somewhere that we could join?

I think I am going to make some youtube videos, headlined with the dealer's name, coach manufacturer, chassis company, power train and generator names. Maybe that will get their attention.


2013 FleetWood Expedition 38B
Before I became a service manager for a motorhome dealer, I was a mechanic for Delta Air Lines for 32 years. Airplanes cost millions, millions, and millions of dollars. The quality control is maintained at every level. We still have flight delays. We still have mechanics working on them as they are being towed to the flight line. Motorhomes are much more complicated than they used to be. The customer complained about having to light the furnace, so they put in a board and igniter. The customer complained about the hot water heater so they again put in a board and igniter. The customer complained about the refrigerator So the installed two boards and a igniter. The customer wanted more room, so they installed a slideout. That was not enough, so the went to two slideouts, then three, then four. I fully agree that there some dealers who don't give a damn about service after the sale. I don't agree that this is most of them. I can honestly say I never worked on a motorhome that I did not give 100% of my effort to fix every writeup. I knew several other mechanics that were just as motivated as I was. I also knew some who would slap a marker light to get it to light. I put a wire brush in a drill and cleaned the contacts then replaced the bulb and coated the contacts. My repair would last several years. His would last maybe until the motorhome got out the door. (now I tell my customers to replace the marker lights with hardwired LED's They always light) If the government does as you suggest. The cost of motorhomes would double or triple. Would you really like to pay $700,000.00 for your coach. Also you would not have many dealers to choose from because most would go out of business. There is one place that I believe you and I would agree. The vendors that supply the parts should provide better quality parts. Get away from china and go back to Japan.
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Old 04-24-2015, 12:19 PM   #77
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Frankly, given the choice of getting the price we do or doubling the price to get the quality we want I will mostly side with the price. I am inclined to think we get what we pay for. I can fix most of the little stuff but want to avoid the big problems.

Wow, very well said. I agree. That is exactly why we bought the Thor ACE. I posted another thread about investigating your RV. Every compartment I know, I think. I installed solar, with 2 gauge wire. A 3000 watt inverter with 2/0 wire. Two Trojan 360 ah 6v batteries. I call Thor for drawings and help and they are wonderful even giving me converter plug in upgrade suggestions should I decide to do that.

Know what you buy!
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Old 04-24-2015, 12:58 PM   #78
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It's hard to get good help on anything, too many go to the job just for the paycheck. Poor workmanship in mfg is very expensive. I ran car dealerships and it's amazing how the owner cares so little for their employees, firing qualified people rather than fixing their problems. They do their best to alienate the customer.

It comes to mind having a baby, very big investment and there's no telling how it will turn out. Most of the problems come from the CEOs (the parents).
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Old 04-24-2015, 01:07 PM   #79
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That's why they all have a quality control dept, otherwise no telling how high the quality might get.
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Old 04-24-2015, 01:09 PM   #80
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Then there are the companies who lay off senior folks to save money and replace with lower skilled and lower cost folks because labor is a major expense and cutting that cost makes bottom line better...

Not limited to rvs
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Old 04-24-2015, 01:43 PM   #81
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I'm not going to read through the 6+ pages of responses, but I'll answer the OPs question.
It's very simple. Quality costs money, period. In Manufacturing, quality is always a compromise, weighed against cost. Yes, it may very well cost more to fix it after it's built, but that doesn't matter. First, whatever the "thing" is, may not fail, even though it's of a lower quality. Second, even if it DOES fail, there's no reason to believe that the manufacturer will actually have to fix all of the failures. It depends on what the failure is and when it occurs.

As for the Detriot analogy, I'd make the following statement:
It took that crisis for Detroit to realize they HAD TO produce a good product and still compete. They could have done so all along, but there was no need. They didn't change because the Gov told them they had to. They changed because now they had different competition, and they HAD to change.
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Old 04-25-2015, 01:26 AM   #82
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I really get fed up with the apologists for the manufacturers. In my case, a 36' fifth wheel. The water tank fell out, the electrical started sparking under the kitchen slide, the toilet plumbing had not been completed, the sliding door fell off, the wood trim fell off, the tires on one axle blew. I expect to repair the odd paint of trim or leak- but when it involves safety there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for shoddy workmanship. It costs the same to actually weld the support braces under the water tank instead of 4" out. The electrical was run to a junction box and two circuits were not connected up, nor were they marreted but were made live-hence the sparking and near fire. Why did the vent for the black water/toilet terminate inside a wall behind the toilet-anybody hear of sewer gas(flamable), A heavy piece of wood (fake) trim fell off the wall immediately across from the door entrance. When I entered the 8' long piece hit me in the face and the nail staple stuck into my scalp-of the 26 staples the bonehead had fired into it 3 at the bottom 12" had actually hit the mark- the rest were nailed into air. The door falling off was the final straw-it happened when it was delivered to the next owner. (I had repaired all other damages and shortcomings). If a person is being paid to wire something in, why isn't a 30 minute inspection done to test circuits, sniff for gas leaks (with electronic sniffer). There are small hand held testers that signal to even knuckle draggers when a circuit is wired correct or NOT. How bad was it? I was wiling to pay the dealer to repair the major stuff-but he wouldn't accept it in the shop-his words-it would be the never ending story. Same brand and model-friends of ours had bought the same model but the 40'. He couldn't even pull it out to the field to use it as a cook shack during harvest as the welds were all popping at the front popup-so his has sat for coming up 2 years- he doesn't want to sell it to some one else and the cost to remove the front cap and peal it all back to repair may not solve anything if the gauge of steel in the main frame is too flimsy. So it is a combination of poor planning and specification and poor assembly line supervision. And NO it would not cost $300,000 to do it right. I appreciate cheaper materials will be used in a price point build- that is not a reason to have such shoddy work on the assembly. When our friend went to the factory to see the assembly line-he went back to his hotel and was ill- he couldn't back out of the deal as the dealer had his money and was put into receivership shortly thereafter. For me- I will buy nothing that I can't see in front of me from now on, preferably used where there will be a known track record of how well particular name brand have stood the test, and let someone else play with dealers getting it done right, and they can absorb the major part of the depreciation.
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Old 04-25-2015, 06:17 AM   #83
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Obviously, you did no take the time to read the rest of this thread before spouting such nonsense. Or is it a case of "my mind is made up. don't bother me with the facts." Do you also believe that the world is flat.

I'll say it louder for you. DECENT QUALITY WOULD NOT DOUBLE THE COST OF RVs. As a mater of fact, it should not increase the manufacturer's cost at all. numerous studies have demonstrated that a modern quality system will reduce costs.

Joel
Obviously you did not read it or you would see several previous notes from me. ;-)


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If I had your list of problems I would totally agree. Fortunately they are not the norm.
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Old 04-25-2015, 06:21 AM   #84
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Obviously, you did no take the time to read the rest of this thread before spouting such nonsense. Or is it a case of "my mind is made up. don't bother me with the facts." Do you also believe that the world is flat.

I'll say it louder for you. DECENT QUALITY WOULD NOT DOUBLE THE COST OF RVs. As a mater of fact, it should not increase the manufacturer's cost at all. numerous studies have demonstrated that a modern quality system will reduce costs.

Joel
Raising your voice or using caps doesnt make you right in fact it only shows your frustration in your inability to push your opinion on others. Rvs are houses rolling and shaking down the worst highways imaginable and will always have problems. Your idea that greater qc will produce problem free coaches and higher profits is a pipe dream. Its ok to dream but if you think you have the only solution and all other ideas are invalid then you really are in fantasy land.
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