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Old 04-25-2015, 06:46 AM   #85
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Obviously, you did no take the time to read the rest of this thread before spouting such nonsense. Or is it a case of "my mind is made up. don't bother me with the facts." Do you also believe that the world is flat.

I'll say it louder for you. DECENT QUALITY WOULD NOT DOUBLE THE COST OF RVs. As a mater of fact, it should not increase the manufacturer's cost at all. numerous studies have demonstrated that a modern quality system will reduce costs.

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Old 04-25-2015, 07:02 AM   #86
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FWIW I will tell you why I think it would. When I started out working there were managers and senior workers who were trained by a system that kept passing down the knowledge. That system fell apart in the 70's due to a combination of hiring and promotions dealing with race and the move of a lot of manufacturing into areas of cheap labor where workers were regarded as a stupid strong back or pair of hands. Management schools now teach that management is a separate skill so managers do not need to know how to do the jobs of the people they manage. The result has been a loss of the training ethic and respect for skills up and down the hierarchy. In order to get the level some folks expect the whole workforce in any facility would need both training and an attitude adjustment. All that takes time and costs money. We can whine all we want to but that will not change the social problems created in today's business world where workers are not valued and treated accordingly.
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:13 AM   #87
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FWIW I will tell you why I think it would. When I started out working there were managers and senior workers who were trained by a system that kept passing down the knowledge. That system fell apart in the 70's due to a combination of hiring and promotions dealing with race and the move of a lot of manufacturing into areas of cheap labor where workers were regarded as a stupid strong back or pair of hands. Management schools now teach that management is a separate skill so managers do not need to know how to do the jobs of the people they manage. The result has been a loss of the training ethic and respect for skills up and down the hierarchy. In order to get the level some folks expect the whole workforce in any facility would need both training and an attitude adjustment. All that takes time and costs money. We can whine all we want to but that will not change the social problems created in today's business world where workers are not valued and treated accordingly.

There is also a huge drug problem in the workforce. The Elkhart area has a really big meth problem. The coach builders like to tout their Amish workforce message but the reality is very different. I'm sure it's an enormous management & HR problem and it has to manifest itself in quality issues.


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Old 04-25-2015, 07:27 AM   #88
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Some of the previous posts are getting personal, rude and attacking other members, which is not permitted by our rules.

You can disagree without being disagreeable.

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Old 04-25-2015, 07:52 AM   #89
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The coach builders like to tout their Amish workforce message but the reality is very different.
In my considerable experience with them the non Amish northern Hoosier is a formidable worker, intelligent and enterprising, at least in the building trades where I worked with many and had many work for me. But then talent chases money, in the blue collar world no less than in the white collar one.
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Old 04-26-2015, 06:47 AM   #90
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FWIW It has been my experience that poor management is always the workers fault.

I am not attacking anyone, just dealing with what I have seen over the years. Anyone who really looks at how things are done today in a lot of places would wonder how business's manage to survive. The old worker training and responsibility ethics seem to have slid well away while the excuses for it being somebody else's fault are rampant. That is not to say some are not true. It is to say that they are not always dealt with for various reasons. Failure to deal with them reflects on the quality problems we are discussing.
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Old 04-27-2015, 09:27 AM   #91
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The only cure/answer to poor quality in construction is competition and an educated consumer. Take away either of those, and you'll get what we have now.
Also keep in mind that there are different grades of quality for different workloads/use cases. Not everyone plans on putting 100,000 miles on their coach in 2 yrs with a family of 6.
And I respectfully disagree about costs. Overall, quality costs money, period. The idea that you, as a manufacturer, save money over the long term by paying for greater quality upfront simply does not apply to this sector where there is frequently minimal useage and high turnover of customers. People are in and out of motorhomes sometimes in as little as 2yrs.
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:49 AM   #92
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Raising your voice or using caps doesnt make you right in fact it only shows your frustration in your inability to push your opinion on others. Rvs are houses rolling and shaking down the worst highways imaginable and will always have problems. Your idea that greater qc will produce problem free coaches and higher profits is a pipe dream. Its ok to dream but if you think you have the only solution and all other ideas are invalid then you really are in fantasy land.
You are right. I do get frustrated by people who make assertions based on nothing more that what seems like common sense.

I am not pushing my opinion. I am pushing well documented facts. If I assert that the earth is round, or that the earth rotates around the sun, those aren't my opinions either. That those assertions appear to violate common sens, doesn't make them any less true.

It has been demonstrated over and over again, that a well planned quality system will save enough on the cost of rework, warranty work, etc., to more than cover the cost of operating the quality system.

Earlier in this thread, I cited several references to back up my assertions. Try reading W. Edwards Demming, Phillip Crosby, or Joseph Juran to name a few. Where are the facts to back up your assertions?

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Old 04-27-2015, 11:35 AM   #93
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The only cure/answer to poor quality in construction is competition and an educated consumer. Take away either of those, and you'll get what we have now.
Also keep in mind that there are different grades of quality for different workloads/use cases. Not everyone plans on putting 100,000 miles on their coach in 2 yrs with a family of 6.
And I respectfully disagree about costs. Overall, quality costs money, period. The idea that you, as a manufacturer, save money over the long term by paying for greater quality upfront simply does not apply to this sector where there is frequently minimal useage and high turnover of customers. People are in and out of motorhomes sometimes in as little as 2yrs.
You can disagree about costs all you want, but that doesn't make it any less true. It has been demonstrated over and over again, that a well planned quality system will save enough on the cost of rework, warranty work, etc., to more than cover the cost of operating the quality system.

Earlier in this thread, I cited several references to back up my assertions. Try reading W. Edwards Demming, Phillip Crosby, or Joseph Juran to name a few.

Secondly, we do not need more competition in this industry. We already have far too much. What makes it extremely difficult to implement decent quality systems is that there are too many manufacturers producing far too many models. The result is that there are so few of any model being produced, that they are essentially hand crafted. Quality systems work best where there is at least some semblance of mass production.

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Old 04-27-2015, 01:02 PM   #94
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It has been demonstrated over and over again, that a well planned quality system will save enough on the cost of rework, warranty work, etc., to more than cover the cost of operating the quality system.
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Old 04-27-2015, 04:10 PM   #95
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These discussions tend to go in every direction because everyone has a different idea of what quality is. Mine - An item that really satisfies my needs at a price I want to pay. Therefore - a cheap item with a good design built correctly to standard is just as good an item as a luxury item built in the same way. Both are quality items. I chose what I need and want to pay .The difference in the two can be more and better materials and more fetures etc. Therefore - a Luxury car or RV can be the same quality as a cheap car or RV. Saw an MH in SC at a campground must have cost selveral hundred grand that had a big sign front and back that said under the RV Brand "Got this (brand Name) Lemon from (dealer name)". Owner said it didn't do him any good but it sure made him feel better to drive around with the signs.
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Old 04-27-2015, 04:39 PM   #96
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Old 04-27-2015, 06:14 PM   #97
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You are right. I do get frustrated by people who make assertions based on nothing more that what seems like common sense.

I am not pushing my opinion. I am pushing well documented facts. If I assert that the earth is round, or that the earth rotates around the sun, those aren't my opinions either. That those assertions appear to violate common sens, doesn't make them any less true.

It has been demonstrated over and over again, that a well planned quality system will save enough on the cost of rework, warranty work, etc., to more than cover the cost of operating the quality system.


Earlier in this thread, I cited several references to back up my assertions. Try reading W. Edwards Demming, Phillip Crosby, or Joseph Juran to name a few. Where are the facts to back up your assertions?

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Old 04-27-2015, 06:26 PM   #98
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These discussions tend to go in every direction because everyone has a different idea of what quality is. Mine - An item that really satisfies my needs at a price I want to pay. Therefore - a cheap item with a good design built correctly to standard is just as good an item as a luxury item built in the same way. Both are quality items. I chose what I need and want to pay .The difference in the two can be more and better materials and more fetures etc. Therefore - a Luxury car or RV can be the same quality as a cheap car or RV. Saw an MH in SC at a campground must have cost selveral hundred grand that had a big sign front and back that said under the RV Brand "Got this (brand Name) Lemon from (dealer name)". Owner said it didn't do him any good but it sure made him feel better to drive around with the signs.
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