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Old 04-14-2015, 09:37 AM   #1
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Why is there even a need to discuss Quality?

I just saw a post by Cruzer about Entegra adding a new person to help with product quality at the dealerships.

My point is that all of the manufactures have the opportunity to 'Build it Right the first time" by simply training, encouraging, and REQUIRING their employees to build it correctly. This is the ONLY opportunity for everything on the coach to actually be inspected and approved.
Once the walls are up and cabinets are in, there are so many places which can't be inspected for quality any longer.

I have seen a video about building a Jayco trailer in 7 hours (look how these guys are hurrying and running)
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:54 AM   #2
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We were out with my brother & his wife to look at a new TT they're considering .... they have the same name brand in a smaller version and are wanting to trade up. The one they have spent 3 months at the dealer getting a rather long list of things that needed to be repaired ... this is brand new from the factory. The one we looked at on Saturday had a handful of items we spotted just during a walk through that would need to be addressed.... and some IMO pretty dumb stuff. To your point ... its a wonder they're able to continue to sell these products with this level of attention to detail .......
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:56 AM   #3
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Yep, it seems that quality at the factory is sorely lacking from all the companies.

I guess they're caught in that "viscous circle" of getting it done faster, costing them less labor, so they can get our business by being a few dollars cheaper!
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Old 04-14-2015, 01:35 PM   #4
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When Honda and Toyota start building MH you will see the quality of all MH manufactures improve. Look at what Toyota and Honda have done for GM, Ford, and Chyrsler. All three American manufactures have improved quality drastically in order to compete.
Although I think the big three quality is nearly par with the Japanese manufacturers the stigma of a Pinto or a Chevette lasts a long time. MH manufacturers should take note.
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Old 04-14-2015, 02:16 PM   #5
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I don't buy that one bit ! They both have issues with quality, and their recalls most times lead the league. The customer shares just as much blame with "wanting it NOW" that drives the manufacturers to produce or lose.
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Old 04-14-2015, 02:36 PM   #6
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The manufacturers obviously put quality last on the list, if not they would have some sort of accountability for all the mistakes that are made. They are more concerned with just pumping out a product and then hoping the buyers either don't notice all the problems within the warranty period or just get fed up and fix it themselves. Very poor business model.
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Old 04-14-2015, 02:38 PM   #7
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I don't buy that one bit ! They both have issues with quality, and their recalls most times lead the league. The customer shares just as much blame with "wanting it NOW" that drives the manufacturers to produce or lose.

X 2
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Old 04-14-2015, 03:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
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The manufacturers obviously put quality last on the list, if not they would have some sort of accountability for all the mistakes that are made. They are more concerned with just pumping out a product and then hoping the buyers either don't notice all the problems within the warranty period or just get fed up and fix it themselves. Very poor business model.
Might appear to be a poor business model from our side but from their side it is profitable. CEO's get huge dollars to sit in front of congress and explain why they did not fix an $8.00 issue. And vehicle sales go up!
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Old 04-14-2015, 03:24 PM   #9
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From my experience quality vs. selling enough units to stay in business seems to be a balancing act. I have worked on a lot of different coaches (and autos and motorcycles) and there are just different levels of "cheapness".

If we all demanded the utmost in quality we would be paying Newell and Prevost prices. Society in general wants a Newell/Prevost conversion at an entry level price and they want it NOW!

While I don't excuse some of the sloppy workmanship I have seen on many of the coaches I understand from a business model that time is money and price points dictate overall quality.

Now there are some things that absolutely disgust me when it comes to quality workmanship, such as when I had the Aqua-Hot unit out of my coach about 8 years ago, it seemed like the entire center of the coach was every employee's garbage can for the entire factory. I found misc. screws, wire nuts, wrappers and crap that didn't have any relevance to the area that I was working in. There is absolutely NO excuse for that kind of poor workmanship. That was nothing more than a blatant lack of pride in one's job and workmanship. And this was coming from a dealer who just insisted that I would be so impressed with my "insert brand here" as far as quality. I don't think I am that hard to please but I do insist if someone is pushing quality then quality is what should be delivered. Maybe I am just asking too much though.

That said, we bought our coach based on the price point of quality we could afford and I knew going into it that it was not going to be a high end coach nor would I expect it to be.

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Old 04-14-2015, 04:00 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by zmotorsports View Post
From my experience quality vs. selling enough units to stay in business seems to be a balancing act. I have worked on a lot of different coaches (and autos and motorcycles) and there are just different levels of "cheapness".

If we all demanded the utmost in quality we would be paying Newell and Prevost prices. Society in general wants a Newell/Prevost conversion at an entry level price and they want it NOW!

That said, we bought our coach based on the price point of quality we could afford and I knew going into it that it was not going to be a high end coach nor would I expect it to be.

Mike.
Excellent points.

While I am new to all this, the whining about quality is really getting old to me already (you can also add the gas/diesel and new/used debates as well). As you noted above, who is going to pay $400k for a 30' coach; for $400k people want a 40'+ DP with heated tile floors, and all sorts of bells and whistles.

And things are not the way they used to be, nor will they be again. We all want 4 flat screen TVs for $500 each, not 1 for $2000 that was made with pride by your neighbor. You can't even buy / build a high quality small house anymore either (we have tried......). We have made our beds, so get used to it.

So It seems to me that a lot of people have some out of whack expectations, and like to spread thier misery (people that are not "happy" unless they are unhappy). Oh, it would be "nice" to get a perfect MH, but it is not going to happen any more than getting a perfect new house . Or any other complex system, particularly when is mobile. Multi million dollar ships, planes, heavy equipment, etc. have extensive break in periods, many times with factory reps present for extended periods.

And quit the comparisons to Honda, etc. When you are building 10s of thousands of cookie cutter bread boxes every day the QC expenses are monitized over hundreds of thousands of vehicles per year, not 1,000. And guess what, they all get bad components too, witness all the recalls.

And as I have referenced before, go to any high end car forum (BMW, Porsche, etc.) and you'll get similar whining. People want an $80k car to have all the features of the $140k car, and beleive me, there are inherent quality issues with all the exotics too, and in many cases it is the volume factor as well; there are things that you just can not address when you are building handfulls vs. huge volumes. And yes, you'll find the fine coach leather pulling away on a dashboard, a system under engineered that fails prematurely, etc.

Is my new coach perfect, no. A couple things that could have been better, but leaving well enough alone - we are going to use it, enjoy it, and not let little things get to me - that is not what life is about at this point and I am not about to let out of whack expectations ruin the experience for me.

Wow, my first pontification on irv2!

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Old 04-14-2015, 04:01 PM   #11
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This is just a reaction to my life as an educator and having purchased 3 MH's and 3-TT's. These days most American's are easy to please. There level of examination is skin deep. I think the best term is they are suckers for, "EYE Candy". The worst part is they then accept the lousy quality when they get it.

The manufacturer IS NOT going to spend $$$$$ if the buyer does not expect quality. That was VERY, VERY, VERY true with the auto industry back in the mid 70's and early 80's. I was teaching in Detroit at the time. I used to ask my BIL (Brother-in-Law) why Detroit wouldn't build a safe economical vehicle (he worked for Rockwell). His response was nobody is asking for it. THEN when the oil embargo hit and everybody wanted better fuel mileage from Detroit couldn't produce it. Japan filled the demand with the imports. Then the FEDS demanded that Detroit produce a fuel efficient vehicle with low emissions. That's one of the only times I've felt that the government needed to step in and force Detroit to do something. They did and eventually Detroit could and can compete with the imports.

It took that crisis for Detroit to realize they could produce a good product and still compete. I could explain what Japan did and DET finally copied to compete. Their only problem was the Unions still had a grip on the industry. I know what the unions did because I worked a few summer jobs and it was awful. Lazy, worthless, individuals (not all) who (did drugs on their breaks and at lunch) and would work very hard to get out of work. Besides the internal Detroit City corruption the end results is Detroit is almost a ghost town. It's a mere shadow of what it used to be. Most of the surviving manufacturing is outside the city. A lot of the unions have backed down or they've lost their jobs.

As long as people buy cheap stuff they will sell it. If you demand a better product something might happen.

I realize I've left a lot of stuff out but that's the nature of forums. If anybody has and responses or concerns PM me and I'll do what I can to answer.

We had 3 TT's For the most part they are junk. They are built on the edge of destruction. Give me one reason they are not. The frames are to thin. There are no working shock absorbers and the tires can just barely carry the intended weight. That's just a start. Tell me that makes any sense.

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Old 04-14-2015, 04:19 PM   #12
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I'm reminded of my uncle. We had a trailer when I was a kid and enjoyed it. He decided he wanted one too. There was a custom building in the area so he had him build it for him but specified the construction. Nice trailer when it was done but too heavy to pull. ;-) The point is all those choices are made in engineering and design by people balancing weight and cost against durability. Heavier makes it more durable and less flexible. OTOH would you pay twice as much for the same unit if it was twice as heavy?
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Old 04-14-2015, 04:22 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by hal1phx View Post
We were out with my brother & his wife to look at a new TT they're considering .... they have the same name brand in a smaller version and are wanting to trade up. The one they have spent 3 months at the dealer getting a rather long list of things that needed to be repaired ... this is brand new from the factory. The one we looked at on Saturday had a handful of items we spotted just during a walk through that would need to be addressed.... and some IMO pretty dumb stuff. To your point ... its a wonder they're able to continue to sell these products with this level of attention to detail .......
It would be interesting to know what the problems were that you saw.
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Old 04-14-2015, 04:25 PM   #14
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That's why they all have a quality control dept, otherwise no telling how high the quality might get.
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