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01-16-2017, 08:02 PM
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#15
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"Formerly Diplomat Don"
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Moorpark, Ca.
Posts: 24,063
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They tried it in California and lost. When the City of Stockton went bankrupt, they ended all pension benefits for City employees. It went to court and they lost. They were required to continue the pensions. It's a little different than health benefits, but pretty similar.
I'm guessing that if Winnebago promised health care, they will soon be in court.
__________________
Don & Mary
2019 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 (Freightliner)
2019 Ford Raptor
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01-16-2017, 08:18 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,455
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Again, not saying what Winnebago is doing is "right" but similar to what was said in that 1996 article I referenced in a prior post, this is what Winnebago has said:
"...asked if employees were told at the time they were working that they would be given health benefits in retirement":
Quote:
“Employees were notified that post-retiree benefits were conditional and subject to change,” said Jefson. “The Retiree Plan Policy has said the plan could be ‘amended, modified or discontinued at any time.’ When retiring, each person was notified about this in writing, and each year thereafter, also in written form.”
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--from this article back in November:
Winnebago explains plan to end retiree benefits
Not saying it's right but if that's the case, retirees won't win in court.
And again, the Feds make it clear what can and can't be done pertaining to all of this in the attached:
Can the Retiree Health Benefits Provided By Your Employer Be Cut?
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01-16-2017, 08:54 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North America somewhere
Posts: 30,878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyjt
An article in the Jan 16 edition of RV Pro is titled "Winnebago to End Post-Retirement Health Benefits." Sad that all their current retirees under 65 will no longer receive these benefits. They are simply being discontinued. Pretty sad that a company would pull something like this on their existing retirees. I could understand not offering benefits going forward to new retirees, but these people retired and were promised certain benefits. Now Winnebago is reneging on that promise. All of us retirees need to remember this when we are shopping for a new coach in the future. I for one, will not consider a Winnebago product in the future.
jt
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Major companies have been practicing that since the late 1990's that I'm personally aware of, it's not new to this country, it's ongoing. The first company I know of that cut benefits was RCA.
__________________
2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD , ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG 11B5MX,Infantry retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA. " My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. John F. Kennedy
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01-16-2017, 09:24 PM
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#18
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Community Administrator
Pond Piggies Club LA Gulf Coast Campers Outdoors RV Owners Club Entegra Owners Club Skyline Owners Group
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 40,720
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It sounds like people are assuming employer health benefits are a right. They're not, they're a privilege & as such, can be taken away.
I don't agree with companies being able to do it & think it stinks, but as us baby boomers retire, it's a huge burden on them to continue to fund these benefits for a growing pool of people. I know, you're all going to say "oh poor company, if they'd quit giving thousands in bonuses to executives there'd be money to fund these things"....& you're correct. But it's not going to change & more & more companies are going to cut these services.
It was ingrained in me to save & not rely on promises made by any employer or anyone else. Thankfully, I'll be secure even if my company pension gets cut or eliminated or even if my SS is reduced or not around when it comes time for me to collect.
Lori-
__________________
Lori (& Dave, my spirit guide) - RV/MH Hall of Fame Lifetime Member | My iRV2 Photo Albums
2016 Phoenix Cruiser 2350S, 2018 Phaeton 40IH,2006 Bounder 36Z, 2004 Cougar 285EFS, 2000 Aerolite 25FBR
There is great need for a sarcasm font.
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01-16-2017, 09:30 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,455
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Again, to show how long this has been going on (and I've also cited cases from the 1990s) and how companies sustain their stance legally, in 2005 GM won their case when cutting retiree health benefits. A federal court ruled:
Quote:
...that even though the company promised health insurance to retirees, "at GM's expense for your lifetime," a clause in the technical summary of the plan noted that GM had the right to alter benefits.
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Again, the GM workers were caught by the "fine print" clause just as Winnebago workers are. So there obviously is precedent. Winnebago workers will not win if they take it to court.
And once again, not saying that this is "right" but just saying it's been happening for decades. Winnebago is NOT the first to do this.
The quote above is from the MSN Money article dated February 8, 2006 titled: RIP: Retiree health plans
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01-17-2017, 06:51 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Somewhere out west
Posts: 467
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As a small business owner, my healthcare costs are more than $2,000/month and if I even glanced at the ACA coverage, the costs would multiply significantly. Winnebago isn't the problem. They are trying to stay in business. It's a difficult choice, but it's better to keep jobs and keep producing a product at a price that people can afford. That kind of language in a benefits package is just common sense, because you never know what economic conditions will be in the years to come.
__________________
Mark, Peggy and Samson on the road full time
2016 Newmar Ventana 3709 and a 2016 Subaru Crosstrek
Real Life in the Cloud
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01-17-2017, 07:39 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Western NY
Posts: 3,809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marknpeg
As a small business owner, my healthcare costs are more than $2,000/month and if I even glanced at the ACA coverage, the costs would multiply significantly. Winnebago isn't the problem. They are trying to stay in business. It's a difficult choice, but it's better to keep jobs and keep producing a product at a price that people can afford. That kind of language in a benefits package is just common sense, because you never know what economic conditions will be in the years to come.
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X2
We have the same problems. What seemed like a logical benefit even 10 years ago is now out of reach. We used to pay family health insurance for all and now we have had to reduce it to cover single only. It's not getting easier out there and locking into unreasonable benefits can be a death knell for many businesses and even municipalities.
__________________
2018.5 Entegra Aspire 44R-Sold, 2019 Chevy Blazer-Sold. 2022 Genesis GV-80.
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01-17-2017, 07:47 AM
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#22
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Senior Member
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northwestern Montana
Posts: 3,513
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The problem is not with Winnebago, the problem is with what healthcare costs have risen to. Wish I had an answer to it.
__________________
Dieselclacker
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01-17-2017, 07:56 AM
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#23
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Moderator Emeritus
Country Coach Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Posts: 7,902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLOVNIT
It sounds like people are assuming employer health benefits are a right. They're not, they're a privilege & as such, can be taken away.
I don't agree with companies being able to do it & think it stinks, but as us baby boomers retire, it's a huge burden on them to continue to fund these benefits for a growing pool of people. I know, you're all going to say "oh poor company, if they'd quit giving thousands in bonuses to executives there'd be money to fund these things"....& you're correct. But it's not going to change & more & more companies are going to cut these services.
It was ingrained in me to save & not rely on promises made by any employer or anyone else. Thankfully, I'll be secure even if my company pension gets cut or eliminated or even if my SS is reduced or not around when it comes time for me to collect.
Lori-
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Lori has nailed it. I was also taught to take responsibility for me and my family so, while I appreciated whatever benefits my employer provided, I never allowed myself to depend on the company to always take care of my needs.
I worked as a clinician and administrator in a large hospital system for 40 years. Many years ago when Medicare was established and it was common for large companies to provide life long health care benefits, everyone did a poor job predicting the increase in life span and the impact it would have on health care costs. Now that us boomers are living longer lives and getting diseases that are costly to treat, the entire health care financing system is set to fail.
A company has a responsibility to stay profitable and in business. The cost of providing health insurance to employees has increased dramatically in recent years and dealing with it will not make everyone happy. Fact of life.
__________________
2007 Country Coach Allure Siskiyou Summit, sold/traded Nov. 2018.
2019 Grand Designs 384GK-R 5th wheel. Glen Allen, VA
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01-17-2017, 08:41 AM
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#24
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Star Don
They tried it in California and lost. When the City of Stockton went bankrupt, they ended all pension benefits for City employees. It went to court and they lost. They were required to continue the pensions. It's a little different than health benefits, but pretty similar.
I'm guessing that if Winnebago promised health care, they will soon be in court.
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My wife is a City of Stockton retiree. When she retired, she had full medical benefits, as promised. Then the City went bankrupt, and the judge allowed the City to pay retirees pennies on the dollar for the value of their future medical, and end the benefit. So, she got a check for about $5k, and no more medical insurance. The pension itself is still intact, even though that was in jeopardy for a while.
It's looking like retiree health benefits are becoming a thing of the past for a lot of people. It's a new world, I guess.
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01-17-2017, 11:05 AM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Titusville, FL
Posts: 5,164
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Many companies have done this and many more will in the future. I retired from Rockwell International. 3 years ago we were told our retiree benefits will cease in 2019.
I've never seen a retiree health plan that didn't contain something like "The company reserves the right to modify or terminate this benefit at any time." as the last line in the benefit handbook. I'm sure there are a few companies that guarantee retiree benefits but I bet there aren't many.
Pensions are a whole different animal and are regulated under federal law. I believe the law is commonly referred to as ERISA passed in 1974. Health benefits are not regulated under any similar law that I am aware of.
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01-17-2017, 11:08 AM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Titusville, FL
Posts: 5,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Star Don
They tried it in California and lost. When the City of Stockton went bankrupt, they ended all pension benefits for City employees. It went to court and they lost. They were required to continue the pensions. It's a little different than health benefits, but pretty similar.
I'm guessing that if Winnebago promised health care, they will soon be in court.
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Actually, I think you might be mistaken about what happened in Stockton and what rules apply to medical benefits vs pension benefits. They are very different.
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01-17-2017, 11:09 AM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,881
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The government did it to the military back in the 90's. Most were promised free health care for life and now we have to pay for Tri-care Prime.
__________________
2010 Phaeton 40QTH on a PG Chassis.
2017 Lincoln MKX.
Air Force One brake system and Blue OX Towbar.
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01-17-2017, 11:24 AM
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#28
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Senior Member
Thor Owners Club Pond Piggies Club Outdoors RV Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: NE. Ohio USA
Posts: 5,973
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Yes, many are caught with the companies funding retirees health care cost or shared costs.
Some as myself, might also fall into not having their retirement health care falling on there company, but on the Union that was ( supposed to be) putting funds away for union members retirement pension and health care.
For the last 20-25 years, the union I belonged to during contract negotiation instead of increasing the health care or pension contributions from the company, would put that money towards a larger raise for newer employees to get them to pass the contracts. Worked every time. The union would repeatedly say "Don't worry your covered, you will be fine come retirement". Then you get a letter in the mail your pension was being cut 50% going forward, health care if you need it is $800 month.
Life has not gotten easier. Only for the few at the top 5%. I suggest to young people even still in school start "YOUR OWN RETIREMENT FUND" & "LIVE AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO A DEBT-FREE LIFE STYLE" Problem with that statement is owning an RV with a loan is about the worst thing one can do instead of socking away for ones retirement.
The only person you can trust is yourself.
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