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Old 04-08-2011, 04:53 PM   #29
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Folks, we're getting off topic here.

Thanks!
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:22 PM   #30
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Yet you have to go back to WWII. Compared to the USA everything in Japan is relatively new and modern. General Curtis Lemay leveled all their cities.

Prior to WWII the Japanese built their homes and buildings out of wood and paper products.

Our newer buildings near fault lines are constructed better, way better than the cities in Japan. The "rocking roller" system was designed at MIT.

And who is that out in the ocean providing supplies and water purification to the Japanese ?

I could go on, but then I would be labeled a Japan basher. I was at Camp Zama in 1968 and did enjoy the country for a little longer than a month.

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Old 04-10-2011, 12:17 AM   #31
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The whole original point was the character of the Japanese people. There is no need for extra police or military intervention. Their character speaks for itself. It has nothing to do with wars, poverty, religion, politics, it is a generation, upon generation of character building.

I spent 3 years in Japan. (Okinawa) When I arrived, and touring around looking at things, I noticed a house that was being built. A few months later it appeared finished, but there were pipe protrusions on the roof, like something was missing. several months later there was an additional home at the second floor level, but then again there was the protruding of pipes on the flat roof top. And those 2nd story roof tops that were there when we arrived, now had a 3rd story with pipes sticking out of the top. Having befriended several Japanese I asked the question of why.

They said that whenever a family member builds a new house the will leave the plumbing fixtures in such a way so that an additional apartment can be added if a family member is unable to support themselves or their family. That member would move into the new addition and take care of the chores of managing the household, including both families. That is they would do the laundry, cooking and other household chores until such time as they could get a job and get back on their feet. They would continue to live there, but each family would do their own household chores. This continued in the addition of apartments. There was an Old Folks Home in Okinawa, and it had 7 residents for a population of a million or double that (can't remember Stuff).

You don't see this in our society.

Edited: p.s., My wife and I were invited into some Japanese homes. You have no idea of what an honor that was bestowed on us. If you visit my house you will see some Japanese culture in the form of Picture Windows, Encased Dolls, and a few other items that were all gifts, and a few hand mad futons. Hmmm! Maybe I'm not an ogre after all, or was it the wife they were honoring and I was just along. Hmmm!
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:05 PM   #32
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It's not that the seawall wasn't built high enough... it's that they store spent fuel rods at all. As someone intimately familiar with nuclear generation plants I, for most of my adult life, have been FOR nuclear power thinking it may solve our ever growing need for inexpensive power. However, I always thought people much brighter then myself would untangle how to use the spent fuel rods and render them safe. To date nobody has. These things are deadly and stay that way for 10,000 years. Storing spent fuel rods is a very dangerous business.

We now store these abominations, man made death and destruction rods, for future generations to deal with in Yucca Mountain and elsewhere. They are routinely loaded onto boxcars in shipping containers and railroaded through highly populated areas. No thought given at all as to how to render them safe. Have you heard the term dirty bomb? All living creatures touch one of them, they die. You drink the water that's passed over them you die. You get close to them for minutes, you die. If you don't die, you wish you had. What are we thinking? This accident in Japan exposes our arrogance and our folly. We can not and never have, had the ability to contradict nature and now we create these monstrosities and store them thinking nature can't hurt them there. Everyday we poison our environment with lots of stuff but none as deadly as these spent fuel rods.
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Paul R. Haller View Post
It's not that the seawall wasn't built high enough... it's that they store spent fuel rods at all. As someone intimately familiar with nuclear generation plants I, for most of my adult life, have been FOR nuclear power thinking it may solve our ever growing need for inexpensive power. However, I always thought people much brighter then myself would untangle how to use the spent fuel rods and render them safe. To date nobody has. These things are deadly and stay that way for 10,000 years. Storing spent fuel rods is a very dangerous business.

We now store these abominations, man made death and destruction rods, for future generations to deal with in Yucca Mountain and elsewhere. They are routinely loaded onto boxcars in shipping containers and railroaded through highly populated areas. No thought given at all as to how to render them safe. Have you heard the term dirty bomb? All living creatures touch one of them, they die. You drink the water that's passed over them you die. You get close to them for minutes, you die. If you don't die, you wish you had. What are we thinking? This accident in Japan exposes our arrogance and our folly. We can not and never have, had the ability to contradict nature and now we create these monstrosities and store them thinking nature can't hurt them there. Everyday we poison our environment with lots of stuff but none as deadly as these spent fuel rods.
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I believe Yucca Mountain has still not been approved for storage, and very little of the spent rods are being transported anywhere. Most are in dry cask storage on site at the power plants because there is no where to ship them.
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Old 04-14-2011, 02:38 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Paul R. Haller View Post
It's not that the seawall wasn't built high enough... it's that they store spent fuel rods at all. As someone intimately familiar with nuclear generation plants I, for most of my adult life, have been FOR nuclear power thinking it may solve our ever growing need for inexpensive power. However, I always thought people much brighter then myself would untangle how to use the spent fuel rods and render them safe. To date nobody has. These things are deadly and stay that way for 10,000 years. Storing spent fuel rods is a very dangerous business.

We now store these abominations, man made death and destruction rods, for future generations to deal with in Yucca Mountain and elsewhere. They are routinely loaded onto boxcars in shipping containers and railroaded through highly populated areas. No thought given at all as to how to render them safe. Have you heard the term dirty bomb? All living creatures touch one of them, they die. You drink the water that's passed over them you die. You get close to them for minutes, you die. If you don't die, you wish you had. What are we thinking? This accident in Japan exposes our arrogance and our folly. We can not and never have, had the ability to contradict nature and now we create these monstrosities and store them thinking nature can't hurt them there. Everyday we poison our environment with lots of stuff but none as deadly as these spent fuel rods.
-Paul R. Haller-
U.C. Berkeley
While I agree with your factual statements, the most vivid memory of my father is recalled. His comment was "If something is wrong, try to fix it, don't complain". We too often have a tendency to point fingers without offering suggestions to the solution. What would you have us do to solve the problem?
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Old 04-14-2011, 04:28 PM   #35
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While I agree with your factual statements, the most vivid memory of my father is recalled. His comment was "If something is wrong, try to fix it, don't complain". We too often have a tendency to point fingers without offering suggestions to the solution. What would you have us do to solve the problem?
I thought my answer was obvious. Since we can't solve the problem... don't make any more of them to start with and spend our resources trying to devise a way to render the existing fuel rods harmless rather then building new plants to make more of them. We need to curb our appetite for ever more power through new technology and through better, more efficiant, products and the retrofit of older technology.

Since better then 50% of our use of energy is used for climate control in residential and commercial business in the US, tie mortgates rates to the efficiancy rating of a buildings envelope for one. That would increase businesses selling and creating energy saving products and small buisness owners doing retofit business while reducing energy consumption and... it's sustainable over decades while growing the economy. That said, it's a long term strategy at best but it is (possibly) a solution. I don't have a clue how to render spent fuel rods economically safe, at least, not yet. Oh sure, if you are not worried about cost or long term effects shoot them all to the moon and leave them there and create the worlds largest dump site away from us for now.
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:01 PM   #36
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I thought my answer was obvious. Since we can't solve the problem... don't make any more of them to start with and spend our resources trying to devise a way to render the existing fuel rods harmless rather then building new plants to make more of them. We need to curb our appetite for ever more power through new technology and through better, more efficiant, products and the retrofit of older technology.

Since better then 50% of our use of energy is used for climate control in residential and commercial business in the US, tie mortgates rates to the efficiancy rating of a buildings envelope for one. That would increase businesses selling and creating energy saving products and small buisness owners doing retofit business while reducing energy consumption and... it's sustainable over decades while growing the economy. That said, it's a long term strategy at best but it is (possibly) a solution. I don't have a clue how to render spent fuel rods economically safe, at least, not yet. Oh sure, if you are not worried about cost or long term effects shoot them all to the moon and leave them there and create the worlds largest dump site away from us for now.
-Paul R. Haller-
Good suggestions and well-taken when it's from someone who knows whereof he speaks. However, I was just referring to what to do with the spent fuel rods. My suggestion is rather than sending them to the moon, why not a shorter trip. Say to the mid-East? I can think of several countries that I would be happy to "contribute" them to, assuming they can't be turned around and used against us as a dirty bomb. I'm not a nuclear guy so I don't know what can be done with these rods. The idea of the moon shot is a good one especially since no one in DC seems to be worried about costs.
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:41 PM   #37
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Good suggestions and well-taken when it's from someone who knows whereof he speaks. However, I was just referring to what to do with the spent fuel rods. My suggestion is rather than sending them to the moon, why not a shorter trip. Say to the mid-East? I can think of several countries that I would be happy to "contribute" them to, assuming they can't be turned around and used against us as a dirty bomb. I'm not a nuclear guy so I don't know what can be done with these rods. The idea of the moon shot is a good one especially since no one in DC seems to be worried about costs.
The shorter trip idea would work, however, that would give the new owner of all the spent fuel rods all the dirty nuclear material to make 100,000 dirty bombs. After that, All that needs doing is using conventional explosives (which seem to be available to anyone with $) to turn the spent fuel rods to dust with is breathable, drinkable, and totally unseen, rendering the explosion site uninhabitable for 10,000 years. Oh, didn't I mention that all these spent fuel rods constitute the essential ingredient for producing a dirty bomb? That's why nuclear facilities in every county, state, province, and country, are on the watch list. It's not that they have nuclear material, they do... it's because they produce power not a fortress to protect the fuel rods from getting into the wrong hands. So, fuel rods are lethal two ways instead of just one. They kill you and they are sought after by anyone with a grudge because they kill you so easily with no fingerprint to track down who used it. I wont bore you with the details of how much is lost by the US in 1 year or that people have been caught at border crossings carrying it presumably to be sold on the black market.

By now you can guess where I stand regarding nuclear power for producing electricity. For me, the dangers far outweigh the gains but we need power and these are the choices we make.
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:57 PM   #38
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I was afraid of that. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Guess I'll have to use my fall back position of loading up our fleets of C-5s with pigs and just drop them over the aforementioned region. Doesn't have anything to do with nukes, but makes me feel better to think about it.

Thanks for the education on fuel rods. I knew they were bad, just not how bad.
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:03 PM   #39
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And the Japanese character is still strong and a thing that maybe should be emulated.
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:20 PM   #40
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You want an easy and safe way to dispose of the used nuclear fuel rods, ship them to the closest/largest nuclear reactor: the Sun!

No waste, no residual effects. The only thing to worry about is the trip off the planet. Imagine what a mess an explosion of a rocket carrying these rods would do to wherever the rods were launched from (Challenger as an example).

This is something that may have to wait until the Space Elevator is (eventually) built.

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