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Old 03-23-2012, 11:12 AM   #57
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The fact is we can be self sustaining if we wanted to be...
What would this entail? We could be self sustaining for 3 years based on current demand and proved oil reserves, then we'd be out of oil. What then? Hope we can find some more? How long will those new reserves last us in the face of current demand?

How would we make this 'self sustaining' oil economy a reality? Have the government seize the oil for exclusive domestic use? Forbid domestic producers from selling on the world market?

FWIW, I agree with you, we should be looking for and extracting every drop of oil at our disposal, and government should not get in the way. I just don't think isolationism is a realistic (or desirable) goal given our free-market ideals in a world oil economy. We would have to abandon those ideals in order to make self-sustenance a reality.
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Oh well I better go put air in my tires and get a tune up so I can save all the fuel as our president says
Sarcastic commentary notwithstanding, people who complain about high gas prices, and then joke about driving vehicles with poorly maintained engines and underinflated tires are hipocritical at best, and lose credibility in the discussion. You don't think people should focus on those things that they CAN do to make a difference, no matter how small? Personally, I get a tune up and put air in my tires because it is the right thing to do, not because any politician tells me I should. Fuel savings is an ancillary benefit.
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:20 AM   #58
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If fuel does go that high suddenly, like by this summer, I'd be really worried about the rest of the economy. It would be hard not to view that rapid a price increase as a stupid ploy by oil companies and speculators to profit before political change or to influence the election this fall. Remember 2008 when oil prices peaked at over $150/bbl and then fell to just over $30/bbl when the economy crashed? I guarantee you that the oil companies do. Whether anyone believes it or not, the major oil company project planners I deal with would MUCH rather see stable $60-$70/bbl oil prices than the boom-and-bust cycles my previous graph illustrated. There's no way to do long-term planning for investment in facilities and exploration when our industry is subjected to such cyclicity.

But I think we should all be concerned and aware that it is going to go up at some point regardless of what anyone does, drilling, fracking, or whatever, because demand is going up really fast in developing countries. At some point it may not be price that will be what we have to worry about, it may be availability, and lack of viable alternatives because we have not explored technology to the fullest. I'm going to let you in on an oil industry secret - we're NOT running out of oil. We're running out of CHEAP, easy to produce oil. There's a LOT of oil left in played-out reservoirs as well as high production cost and unconventional sources (tar sands, tight oil, syncrude from coal, etc.) that can be produced, but not cheaply.
Please see my comments above.

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Old 03-23-2012, 11:33 AM   #59
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I dunno'....we didn't buy our M/home because of the price of fuel. And we won't sell it for that reason either. As I see more and more of our friends and relatives in major health crises - or worse - I consider what the price to live life really is. Do we wait for fuel prices to come down....someday? Or do we wait for the doctor to come in and review our test results and schedule a semi-private room? We're just not going to wait around for either event to occur, if we can help it.

We are blessed to live in an area of the country where a wonderful campground up in the mountains is about an hour or so from our home....don't have to drive a thousand miles to enjoy the outdoors and the m/home. But we still plan to take a couple of extended, high mileage trips this year....and we sure ain't wealthy folks, that's for sure. But somehow we'll find a way. And, God willin' and the creeks don't rise, that semi-private room will just have to wait a while. FWIW...
My sentiments exactly. Get out and enjoy while you can...
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:26 PM   #60
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Again....I just say I dunno'. The OP's question was, as it turns out, more than just a bit thought provoking. His original post sought opinions on wheter or not gas/fuel prices at $8 per gallon would significantly impact our individaul RVing plans. At least, that's how I interpreted it. In the meantime, there have been numerous posts with many opinions, some filled with fact...some filled with fiction. And most have been very interesting reading. But, IMHO, the opposing opinions regarding gas/fuel prices and what to do about it underscore one simple conclusion that I came to some years ago. Maybe you did too. We do not have a meaningful energy policy in this country. It's that simple. And the key word to me is "meaningful". How else can most rational people explain away so many irrational, illogical decisions being made by our so-called leaders? Too many times in recent years, we have met the enemy....and he is us. We have shot ourselves in the foot so many times at the "Special Interest Not OK Corral" gunfight that we are just about out of ammunition. Amazing, really.

There's a seminar training learning point that I used to use when trying to convince managers on why they needed to review their processes on improving their employees' substandard behavior. It simply states...."Keep doing what you're doing, and you'll get what you already got!!". It may not be correct grammar, but it ALWAYS got the guys nodding their heads in approval. Thus, if what we're doing is what you want and it works for you....Great! If not....Duh! It just seems to me, unless we change a non-existant or non-working energy policy, we will keep getting what we already got....high prices and finger pointing. And not much else. Pretty simple concept, methinks.

Anyhow, to again answer the OP, I'm getting the coach ready to use this year despite the weeping and gnashing of teeth over gas/fuel prices. And, yes, despite the fact that we have no national energy policy that makes any sense. 'Cause, right now, it's all we got....and we're going to get more!
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:20 PM   #61
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If I owned/controlled a product that was finite - I'd what until the rest of the world used theirs up and then use (and charge for) mine.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:58 PM   #62
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Besides my op I have also been wondering how high prices have to get before chassis manufactures come up with a hybrid power system. Don't laugh, diesel-electric locomotives were manufactured to keep railroad company expenses to a minimum while maximizing cargo payload.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:04 PM   #63
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Besides my op I have also been wondering how high prices have to get before chassis manufactures come up with a hybrid power system. Don't laugh, diesel-electric locomotives were manufactured to keep railroad company expenses to a minimum while maximizing cargo payload.

Good question. Some of our coaches already have a diesel-electric power plant, the generator. I wonder what the physics are with regards to powering electric motors to move an RV.
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:37 PM   #64
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What would this entail? We could be self sustaining for 3 years based on current demand and proved oil reserves, then we'd be out of oil. What then? Hope we can find some more? How long will those new reserves last us in the face of current demand?

How would we make this 'self sustaining' oil economy a reality? Have the government seize the oil for exclusive domestic use? Forbid domestic producers from selling on the world market?

FWIW, I agree with you, we should be looking for and extracting every drop of oil at our disposal, and government should not get in the way. I just don't think isolationism is a realistic (or desirable) goal given our free-market ideals in a world oil economy. We would have to abandon those ideals in order to make self-sustenance a reality.


Sarcastic commentary notwithstanding, people who complain about high gas prices, and then joke about driving vehicles with poorly maintained engines and underinflated tires are hipocritical at best, and lose credibility in the discussion. You don't think people should focus on those things that they CAN do to make a difference, no matter how small? Personally, I get a tune up and put air in my tires because it is the right thing to do, not because any politician tells me I should. Fuel savings is an ancillary benefit.
I don't think I'll waste my time trying to educate you, it can't be done. Proven oil reserves aren't a measure of the true resources available in our nation, They are just talking points used by current administration and not facts. If you truly believe we only have 3 years of oil resources, you've been drinking the cool-aid, Calling me a hipocrit won't change that fact that our president stated that tuning our cars and inflating our tires would produce as much oil as increased drilling. I do keep my vehicles tuned and tires aired.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:07 AM   #65
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Angry Keystone Pipeline & record oil company profits

"We have plenty of oil in fact we even closed a refinery that makes gas. The problem is the greedy speculators on Wall Street. They are dictating the price of gas and a barrel of oil. The higher it goes the more money they make. Again it is GREED".

In fact the United States is awash in crude oil and the ONLY reason that oil pipeline is "desperately needed" is because the oil companies (read Wall Street) are making a killing EXPORTING gasoline right now. In fact, the estimates for what a gallon of gas should actually cost with all this available oil and NO speculation..? (by the way, we are AT WAR and we have laws on the books from WWII that clearly makes it illegal to be a profiteer!). Anyway, a gallon of regular gas should $2.50 !!! Go figure!

That Keystone pipeline should be described in another way... "Mass transportation for oil" (I still cannot believe California hasn't installed mono-rails down the center of every large freeway in the state... It's a no brainer!). Wait, I know why, the oil, concrete, asphalt, auto lobbies didn't want mass transit to interrupt their profits the past 60 years which I understand completely, but now try and get anywhere in LA during rush hour... insanity.

(End of report... let's go camping)

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Old 03-24-2012, 01:12 AM   #66
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By the way, China gets 50% of their oil through the Strait of Hormuz, does anyone think they will allow their economy to take that kind of hit if it gets blockaded...? Plus they are backing Iran anyway so the whole deal could get really sticky if Israel does start a conflict...

Movie at ten!

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Old 03-24-2012, 02:02 AM   #67
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I think it's time to mention the tone this post is starting to take, let's start being a little more mindful about being nice as well as political content while posting.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:46 PM   #68
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I don't think I'll waste my time trying to educate you, it can't be done.
Personal attacks aren't really useful to the discussion, are they? I'll not dignify this with a response.
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Proven oil reserves aren't a measure of the true resources available in our nation, They are just talking points used by current administration and not facts.
The current administration didn't invent the term. According to the CIA world fact book: "Proved reserves are those quantities of petroleum which, by analysis of geological and engineering data, can be estimated with a high degree of confidence to be commercially recoverable from a given date forward, from known reservoirs and under current economic conditions."

I understand that this does not include unfound oil, and I stated that in my previous post. People can speculate that there is a lot more oil to be found, but sound policy is not based upon speculation. I also stated that I agree that government should get out of the way and open up exploration everywhere.
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If you truly believe we only have 3 years of oil resources, you've been drinking the cool-aid...
I'm not really a cool-aid drinker. I based that statement on a previous post I made where I linked my sources and expressed my surprise at the calculation. I'd invite you to link some of your sources to the contrary.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:28 PM   #69
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[QUOTE=fix that car;(I still cannot believe California hasn't installed mono-rails down the center of every large freeway in the state... It's a no brainer!). Wait, I know why, the oil, concrete, asphalt, auto lobbies didn't want mass transit to interrupt their profits the past 60 years which I understand completely, but now try and get anywhere in LA during rush hour... insanity.

You don't understand why California hasn't installed monorails?? Really?? Who pays?? You?? Maybe you don't know this, but California is broke...and has been for many, many years, hidden only by their funny way of cost-accounting to cover "other" programs (a subject not appropriate for this forum). And virtually every mass transit system in the Country is/would be financially insolvent....without general taxpayer subsidies in one form or another. That's a fact. Ever hear of Amtrac? There's a real success story for ya'. Ever ride it? You should 'cause you're paying for that folly too....as is everyone else.

One of the many reasons I left California a few years ago wasn't the crushing traffic....it was the even more crushing taxes. And, with all those taxes, California is STILL broke. And there's still the crushing traffic. Southern California's problems go much, much deeper than rush hour traffic and lack of monorails. And our Country's lack of a logical energy policy goes much, much deeper than oil, concrete, asphalt and auto lobbies. Deeper than monorails as well....just MHO.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:55 PM   #70
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Please see my comments above.

Rusty
Rusty, you obviously know more than I do about the oil industry and I for one appreciate the knowledgeable posts.

It seems to me that we're saying the same thing but in different ways - regardless of how much easier to get crude is still available, maintaining production at levels that will keep the price down given increasing demand is a finite proposition. When the easy stuff peters out, increasing levels of technology, which in turn means higher costs, will be required to maintain even the same levels of production that we have today, and if demand goes up, this will require more technology and still more cost.

We can fight that process in several ways: (1) reducing demand; (2) making technological breakthroughs that allow increased unit production at lower cost; (3) finding more easy to produce oil reserves.

Are there any other ways?
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