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Old 12-30-2010, 11:59 PM   #71
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Agree on the 'mud slinging' stuff... especially since we are ALL tied to 'big oil' ...
I wouldn't know why. We have the Department of Energy that was formed back in the early '73-'74 time frame with the purpose of "reducing our dependence on foreign oil." I just know that with a budget of $23-26Billion per year over just the past 5 years, it has to be accomplishing it's mission.

We are all going to have to buy electric cars soon so that will finish the transition, I'm sure.
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:24 AM   #72
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I watched a program on tv recently that showed cars running on hydrogen, it also showed the equipment being used now in Norway to produce the hydrogen. It was solar powered and the actual hydrogen making "machine" was about the size of a refrigerator. In other words it would actually fit nicely in most garages. I don't think our oil companies would like us all to have our own fuel producing equipment for our vehicles, and the government would have to figure out a new way to tax us. We need to get the political will to force the developement of alternate energy production and get out of using oil to make just about everything. This would help solve many problems such as pollution, the transfer of our wealth to fund terror, the recession, inflation, devaluation of the US dollar, etc. What are we waiting for? What is the benefit of not doing this? Who is benefiting from not doing this? Certainly the common person is not better off by not pursueing alternate energy technology, but the oil industry is. We need to get going on this before we dig a hole so deep that even our grandchildren won't be able to climb out of it.
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Old 12-31-2010, 12:59 PM   #73
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The only problem with Hydrogen production is that you have to use natural gas to produce hydrogen. You are still buying from the nasty "oil companies" who are investing billions on Natural gas. Many reports are out there that say hydrogen car developement is too costly for the return at this time.
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:08 PM   #74
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Hydrogen can also be produced by the electrolysis of water into its elements, hydrogen and oxygen. This, of course, requires electrical power. Unless the electricity is produced by solar, wind, tidal, hydro or (God forbid, insofar as the greenies are concerned!) nuclear , hydrogen production isn't green.

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Old 12-31-2010, 01:18 PM   #75
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Presidents control the flow of money and the US Budget? Hmm..
Specifically if they have the House and the Senate on their side!
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:27 PM   #76
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. Europe has been abandoning the concept as quick as they can and have dropped cap and trade.
You seem to have some information that is not widely known in Europe. Our various Plant managements in Europe will be exited if I can give them this news!.

But I will wait with that until the second phase of cap& trade is over in Europe in 2012 (it started in 2008, following the first phase).

Wikipedia seems to be also uninformed about the end of cap & trade in Europe
European Union Emission Trading Scheme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:48 PM   #77
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The only problem with Hydrogen production is that you have to use natural gas to produce hydrogen. You are still buying from the nasty "oil companies" who are investing billions on Natural gas. Many reports are out there that say hydrogen car developement is too costly for the return at this time.
As EasyRider said, solar is ideal for the production of hydrogen! With the appropriate equipment it is not required to involve the electric step. However, currently hydrogen is mostly produced as a byproduct of natural gas processing or through the electrolysis of water (with the help of electricity).

I feel that it is OK to buy from the oil companies as log as we don't need to buy energy from them that will transfer our money to countries (or their population) that are not very friendly to the US and the Western World.

As long as the oil companies invest their wealth in the US or with our friend, and as long as they employ our countrymen as workers, I do not see anything wrong with having the,m involved. After all, they helped to create part of our countries wealth!

My employer, and the other large companies of the consortium seem to think that the development of hydrogen fueled cars will pay off after a reasonable time. Since my employer is one of the more profitable Fortune 500 Companies, I would think that they have a pretty good idea about what is profitable and what is not!
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:35 PM   #78
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Currently only 4% of Hydrogen production worldwide is obtained through electrolysis and the majority of this 4% is just a byproduct in the production of Chlorine. Most of this 4% is either burned off or used in the production of other chemicals. Using electrical energy for electrolysis is wasteful as it is only 35-40% efficient. In other words, it would require more energy to produce hydrogen via electrolysis than the return energy in hydrogen. Maybe in another 50 years???
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:43 PM   #79
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We are all going to have to buy electric cars soon so that will finish the transition, I'm sure.
I wonder how big a battery trailer will be needed behind an average RV to take it across the USA...
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Old 12-31-2010, 03:40 PM   #80
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This may have been covered before... Around our part of the country they run city buses on natural gas. They have been for years and they run great. There is an abundance of natural gas in the NE US. They are just starting to drill for it. There are a lot of new millionaires here in PA/NY from signing gas leases on their property.... If they can run city buses on natural gas, one can easily run the biggest motorhomes and trucks. All is needed is the investment to set up the infrastructure (scrap the gas/diesel pumps and install liquid gas pumps).
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Old 12-31-2010, 04:38 PM   #81
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Currently only 4% of Hydrogen production worldwide is obtained through electrolysis and the majority of this 4% is just a byproduct in the production of Chlorine. Most of this 4% is either burned off or used in the production of other chemicals. Using electrical energy for electrolysis is wasteful as it is only 35-40% efficient. In other words, it would require more energy to produce hydrogen via electrolysis than the return energy in hydrogen. Maybe in another 50 years???
I do not hope so! The fuel cell is basically developed, and the emphasis of the current research seems to be placed on better production and distribution systems for hydrogen. I believe we will see results in the not to fare future once the combined brainpower of the US and European researchers and engineers is put into action.

Our researchers and engineers brought us to the moon and back, and I have no doubt that they can find a good solution for this problem!

We have many very talented people in this country, we just have to allow them to do this work! Having worked for almost 40 years with some of them makes me a strong believer of the ability of the scientists and engineers of this country! They can do it!
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Old 12-31-2010, 04:50 PM   #82
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This may have been covered before... Around our part of the country they run city buses on natural gas. They have been for years and they run great. There is an abundance of natural gas in the NE US. They are just starting to drill for it. There are a lot of new millionaires here in PA/NY from signing gas leases on their property.... If they can run city buses on natural gas, one can easily run the biggest motorhomes and trucks. All is needed is the investment to set up the infrastructure (scrap the gas/diesel pumps and install liquid gas pumps).
That is what you see in many West European countrys. Besides the diesel and gasoline pumps, they have a pump for natural gas. They use this fuel as an interim propellant until either the diesel/hybrits are fully developed (this seems to be spear headed by VW/Poesche), and/or other systems are ready to be used to liberate the western world from the dictatorship of the Middle Eastern and African oil supply!

And a beneficial sideline is the reduction of pollutants that is gained with those systems! And if those pollutants are really causing part of the global warming, well we gain a double whammy, less Arabian oil and less global warming!
Why should we not be exited about this? Why should we be nay saiers and find hundrets of reasons why these new technologies can't work?
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Old 12-31-2010, 05:21 PM   #83
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That is what you see in many West European countrys. Besides the diesel and gasoline pumps, they have a pump for natural gas. They use this fuel as an interim propellant until either the diesel/hybrits are fully developed (this seems to be spear headed by VW/Poesche), and/or other systems are ready to be used to liberate the western world from the dictatorship of the Middle Eastern and African oil supply!

And a beneficial sideline is the reduction of pollutants that is gained with those systems! And if those pollutants are really causing part of the global warming, well we gain a double whammy, less Arabian oil and less global warming!
Why should we not be exited about this? Why should we be nay saiers and find hundrets of reasons why these new technologies can't work?
In addition to the above, is the fact that properly produced natural gas fuel is far cleaner burning, and potentially extends engine life and oil change intervals...
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Old 12-31-2010, 06:00 PM   #84
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And..it's technology that is here now, not just a experiment that has to have billions spent before it is viable.
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