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Old 12-31-2010, 10:09 PM   #85
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That photo of the Swiss glacier receding proves that that Swiss glacier is receding. It does not prove global warming. It has been floating around the internet for years. There are over 40,000 glaciers in the world and 3% have been studied. Many glaciers are advancing. The satellite measuring systems of artic ice indicates that this yearís ice mass is well above the 30 year average (as long as satellite data is available). The whole concept of the conveyor is false if there is more ice in the artic. The Antarctic is colder and even the CRU agrees with that fact. It contains 9 times more ice mass than the artic. As we continue to have colder weather, the alarmist are having to come up with much more speculative theories. Fortunately, most Americans are not believe this malarkey any more. The same ďscientistĒ who said when Washington, DC had almost no snow a few years back that winter would always be warm and snow was a thing of the past, are now saying that the record snow and temperatures are called by global warming. This is about taxes, control, and politics, not actual environmental problems. Are we wanting to tell the 5 billion people in the third world that they canít have electricity and modern systems because energy usage hurts the environment even thought it is just an unproven theory that is quickly becoming obsolete.
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Old 01-01-2011, 08:41 AM   #86
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That photo of the Swiss glacier receding proves that that Swiss glacier is receding. It does not prove global warming. It has been floating around the internet for years. There are over 40,000 glaciers in the world and 3% have been studied. Many glaciers are advancing. The satellite measuring systems of artic ice indicates that this yearís ice mass is well above the 30 year average (as long as satellite data is available). The whole concept of the conveyor is false if there is more ice in the artic. The Antarctic is colder and even the CRU agrees with that fact. It contains 9 times more ice mass than the artic. As we continue to have colder weather, the alarmist are having to come up with much more speculative theories. Fortunately, most Americans are not believe this malarkey any more. The same ďscientistĒ who said when Washington, DC had almost no snow a few years back that winter would always be warm and snow was a thing of the past, are now saying that the record snow and temperatures are called by global warming. This is about taxes, control, and politics, not actual environmental problems. Are we wanting to tell the 5 billion people in the third world that they canít have electricity and modern systems because energy usage hurts the environment even thought it is just an unproven theory that is quickly becoming obsolete.
I recommend some reading:

Is Global Warming Real? : Discovery News

Global Warming Solutions, Is It Real? - National Geographic

HowStuffWorks "The Global Warming Controversy"

More Snow Doesn't Stop Global Warming - International Business Times

Surveyed scientists agree global warming is real - CNN
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Old 01-01-2011, 09:49 AM   #87
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Nice response Lindsay.
If people are worried about the environment, foreign oil, wealth transfer, etc, lets take action to resolve them as such. We are not going to appreciably change the normal climate cycles of the planet by politics, feel good and walking a lot more.
Since the 70's we have made huge improvements in the environment, water and air pollution are a faction of what is was then. Acid rain is reduced by over 70%.
Present energy alternatives are ineffective at best. The wind turbines are very expensive to manufacture, transport and install. Have a short operating lifespan, require considerable maintenance and without the gov't subsidies barely make enough energy to offset their cost. The energy produced costs about 4x that from powerplants.
The energy required to produce ethanol nearly equals the petroleum gained from using it. Considering the lost engine efficiency, (power & mpg), huge subsities, transportation costs, increased food cost. (can't squeeze your corn and eat it too) - it is not an effective alternative.
We are spending billions on technology that isn't quite there. If electric cars, fuel cells or hyrogen are the answer, then lets have the consortiums develop them to the point they are efficient, convenient and economical. Then present them as a viable alternative, not just as a money maker....
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:08 AM   #88
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If electric cars, fuel cells or hyrogen are the answer, then lets have the consortiums develop them to the point they are efficient, convenient and economical. Then present them as a viable alternative, not just as a money maker....
And your recommendation for the interim time is?
Shall we just continue the way we did until now? Should we not try to conserve as much fossil energy as possible (without making major sacrifices)? Shall we just put our head into the sand and hope somehow there will be a solution?

Why do some RV'ers install solar battery chargers? They could achieve the same charging effect with the on board generator. Why are some MH users happy that they save fuel because they switched to a diesel engine?
These are relative simple measures for conserving fossil fuel, one RV at a time. What is wrong with this?
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:24 AM   #89
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I am all for alternative energy and plan on being the first on my block to have it when it becomes economically viable. That isnít here yet. Photovoltaic solar power has an infinite payback. The interest on the investment is more than the power generated in most areas of the US. It survives only because of huge subsidies which are figured into the rosy pictures you sometimes see in the environmentally dominated media. The concentration form of solar where they have huge acreage of convex mirrors focusing solar onto a large tower heating fluid for power generation has only a 20 year payback, but is hated by the environmentalist because of the huge land usage which becomes barren and ruins the habitat for lizards and such. The largest project in the world was recently shot down by Senator Feinstein (D-CA). It was in a barren area of the Mojave desert. Senator Kennedy shot down the Cape Wind project off of Cape Cod that would have supplied 150,000 households because it interfered with the view (7 miles offshore). Wind can have a 20 year payback in some areas with modern technology. Hard and expensive to store wind, plus you still have to have a complete fossil fuel system warmed up and ready to go so when it doesnít blow. Ireland for example had to get 85% of itís power during recent cold spell from Germanyís nuclear because no wind and overcast when cold.

Florida Power recently put in a heavily subsidized solar power station in Punta Gorda, FL. Its cost $160,000,000 and will provide power for 3,000 homes when the sun is shining. Do the math. Thatís $53,000 per home. Interest on this is about, or $225 per month which is higher that the average monthly cost of power in the area and generation isnít the main cost of power. Who pays for all those employees, little white trucks, tree trimming and the like? President Obama, Biden, and Al Gore all visited and lauded it. Who is paying the difference? Me for one. I am all for research on alternatives, but feel good boondoggles like are a waste. If it has to be subsidized it is worthless. If people donít think organizations like the Discovery Channel, Nation Geographic, and Union for Concerned Scientist are filled with tree huggers, then there is nothing I can say that would change our mind. Just because you read it on the internet, doesnít mean it is true.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:57 AM   #90
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Well said Lindsay.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:59 AM   #91
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Really good discussion. I'm sure learning a lot.

If I understand the point that Lindsay is making below and others have mentioned as well, it is that politics and personal financial gain have led our leaders to "invest" in subsidies of alternative energy experiments which are worthless and should have never been attempted. Further, I take the implication to be that free market forces should drive the development of alternative energy technologies and they shouldn't be deployed until it is efficient and cost effective.

The issue I have with this approach is that free market forces are rarely interested in results beyond the immediate horizon and so long as the numbers are working for this quarter's results status quo is fine. I see very little incentive for free market forces to pursue this problem as aggressively as it requires. It would have been like waiting for the weapons companies to develop the atomic bomb in WWII instead of "subsidising" development of the technology. I think our current threats are just as real.

As for tree huggers... I for one am glad they're there to provide the counter point to the actions being taken by our free market.

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If it has to be subsidized it is worthless. If people donít think organizations like the Discovery Channel, Nation Geographic, and Union for Concerned Scientist are filled with tree huggers, then there is nothing I can say that would change our mind. Just because you read it on the internet, doesnít mean it is true.
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:12 PM   #92
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You notice how Ice will kind of disapear after a while even when it is 0" outside?

Evaporation, not melting
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:27 PM   #93
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For those of us who don't believe in global warming or man made climate change, nothing you say will convince us. For those of you who do believe, nothing we say will convince you otherwise.

I have solar on my RV, why? I have no access to power at the RV storage lot and replacing batteries was getting expensive, plus I am on CPAP and running the generator all night when dry camping is not viable or neighborly.

I have grid tied solar on my home, why? It made economic sense for us. My monthly solar payment is equal to what I was paying the power company. Electric utility rates here average %7 increase per year, my solar payment is frozen.

I recycle more than most "greenies", why? It makes sense economically. I get about $140 a year from returned aluminum cans, plastic and glass bottles.

If an electric car made economic sense I would buy one, but I won't buy one to "save the planet".

I won't belittle or demean you if you believe in "man made climate change", please give me the same respect.
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:54 PM   #94
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The issue I have with this approach is that free market forces are rarely interested in results beyond the immediate horizon and so long as the numbers are working for this quarter's results status quo is fine. I see very little incentive for free market forces to pursue this problem as aggressively as it requires. It would have been like waiting for the weapons companies to develop the atomic bomb in WWII instead of "subsidising" development of the technology. I think our current threats are just as real.

As for tree huggers... I for one am glad they're there to provide the counter point to the actions being taken by our free market.

Rick
I fully agree with you! Considering that my employer is one of the largest global companies, with their headquarter in the US, I have to wonder, why they are involved in this kind of research. I don't believe that this is just to burn some shareholders money, but rather that they identified a real profitable business behind these efforts. And if companies such as my employer profit, the entire US has an advantage from it!

We heat the entire water and part of our house with solar panels, and I can see the result in my monthly gas and electricity bill. That is real money saved! If energy prices stay at the current level, my installation will have paid for it self in eight to ten years! What is wrong with saving some money with the additional benefit of being friendly to the environment? Why are some people fightinh these approaches! We don't need gigantic solar fields or wind farms, we can achieve similar results one house, one RV at a time. The big installations are political projects, and they don't save any money for me, but my house needs a roof, why not use part of that roof to utilize free enrgy?
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:54 PM   #95
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I agree that solar with boon docking is a great idea and I have a small solar board on my coach, but it doesn't make any sense on a home unless somebody else is paying for it like is happening now. The federal government was paying a $6,500 subsidy on electric vehicles and they were selling them for $6,500 or basically free. That's even better than Cash for Clunkers. I am a big fan of nuclear, but we haven't built one in 30 years. Solar pool heating and water heating are great. I would love to see America private and public come up with a cheap, efficient energy source, but we keep spending billions on technology that can't come close to fossil fuels. Can you imagine the success a company would have if they developed a new cheap energy source. Microsoft and Google would be small potatoes. People also get confused with pollution like you see from smoke stacks and exhaust pipes and CO2 which is a natural by product of combustion and exhaled in our every breath.
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:57 PM   #96
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You notice how Ice will kind of disapear after a while even when it is 0" outside?

Evaporation, not melting
But you also notice that it will snow alot onto these mountains, and that the ice will be formed faster than ist evaporates?

I live in an area of the country that has about 5 to six months of winter, and we know more about ice and snow than we want to know! Specifically when I look at the current ice dams on my roof!
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Old 01-01-2011, 01:04 PM   #97
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For those of us who don't believe in global warming or man made climate change, nothing you say will convince us. For those of you who do believe, nothing we say will convince you otherwise.

I have solar on my RV, why? I have no access to power at the RV storage lot and replacing batteries was getting expensive, plus I am on CPAP and running the generator all night when dry camping is not viable or neighborly.

I have grid tied solar on my home, why? It made economic sense for us. My monthly solar payment is equal to what I was paying the power company. Electric utility rates here average %7 increase per year, my solar payment is frozen.

I recycle more than most "greenies", why? It makes sense economically. I get about $140 a year from returned aluminum cans, plastic and glass bottles.

If an electric car made economic sense I would buy one, but I won't buy one to "save the planet".

I won't belittle or demean you if you believe in "man made climate change", please give me the same respect.
Well you are green, whether you like it or not! That's what I try to say here, it can save money to be green (and as a nice side effect it helps the environment, and maybe, it also helps to reduce global warming). if all of us would think like you, global warming might not be an issue at all. At least, the US could tell the world: we do our thing it's up to you to do your part!
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Old 01-01-2011, 01:08 PM   #98
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Works good for heating water, but for producing electricity it sucks. If you cover your entire home roof with photovoltaic panels, the interest on the money you spent to install it will pay for fossil fuel produced energy for the month and the solar only works about 30 % of the time (night time, shady days, ETC). Sounds good, but if it actually worked then it would be everywhere and not failing even with large subsidies. It is not free as you often hear. If you figure in all cost, it is very expensive. Ever try running your coach AC or microwave on solar? Nobody is arguing that the concept isn’t good, it just doesn’t work yet. The technology isn’t there yet. I don’t know anybody who is against alternative energy. We were recently in Amish country in Berlin, OH and many had solar panels as well as windmills (for pumping water) and many believe it or not even have natural gas wells on their property where they get a cut of the gas produced for free.
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