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Old 06-28-2006, 03:49 PM   #29
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ruby2sday:
Michael you are so right.

It is a shame that so many people live their lives wearing flag covered glasses. Thinking that those of us who see beyond the "patriotism" are somehow unAmerican.

I am not against our troups, if anything I am so much more for the troups than those who wave the flag and send our kids off to fight a lost cause so the Halliburtons, the Bushes and the like can fleece us all and make billions.

Our troups need all our support. So lets do something and bring them home where they belong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



LET US NOT "CUT AND RUN".
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Old 06-28-2006, 04:12 PM   #30
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History will judge the presidents, as well as the voters here.

I have a real problem when folks start political rhetoric online, especially on my two favorite forums.

We have a really great system here in our great country, a vote that does count.

Personally I do not give credibility to those who are on the extreme 10% of the right, or the extreme 10% of the left.

It has been my experience that neither group on the extremes has ever actually put themselves in harm's way for a higher cause, even if that be just an oath sworn to protect and defend the constitution, and to obey the orders of the Commander in Chief.

No way the lefties are going to convert the righties with their rhetoric, nor the righties convert the lefties.

Boring!

My perspective is simple. "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know." Anon.

That taste is there whether we agreed with the leaders or not. That taste is there whether we voted against the leaders or not. That taste is there regardless of the lefty or righty rhetoric. That taste is there, even when we veterans of war disagree amongst oursleves.

What is that taste? It is the perspective that the protected will never know what it took to get, and keep us where we are. By force of arms, by readiness, and yes by proving our resolve in wars popular or not. And risking it all.

All political rhetoric does is alienate. Lefties, the righties will not change any more because of your insults and rhetoric than you will for theirs, and vice versa.

We do have a real source of power, our votes, done with no one watching and marking us down as pro or against the folks in power. Unlike a lot of countries.

My point? Simple. Save your breath, and typing, and go to the polls when it is time, and make your voice heard there.

That is what we fought for, that is what we have.

You are welcome. You can never pay us back, those who armchair quarterback, never risking anything.

We had no choice, as we are subject to civilian authority, as it should be. We knew, and served.

But even we can vote!

There are those against the war, and those for it, both vets and those who stayed home and watched the news. So what's new? Had the same with Tories in Washington's time through the protestors today. Notice protestors always seem to stay home? While the vets just vote, and proudly speak.

So what good is this rhetoric here?

To me it sounds like folks that have already bored everybody they have ever talked to to death, and have no other outlet but online, and usually totally anonymous.

Then they can be trolls, starting fights online, that they wouldn't dare to do in person, where they would have to back it up.

So be it.

But tread carefully, and argue the content, and have links and proof ready, if you wish to debate, and most of all, go to a political website, not here.

You see, when you flame the person, not the content, and start rhetoric, we who have fought have you pegged.

We who have fought might disagree politically. But we join when we see the rhetoric from those who stayed home.

Why? Because from Washington's Army to today's US forces, we made your rant possible.

It took blood and guts. Sometimes not popular, other times with a real war effort.

Regardless of the politcal rants of the protected, we who have served, find freedom to have taste you will never know.

More importantly, we have a satisfaction, that, agree with you or not, we made you and your rants possible.

Huah!

Now before you go off half cocked look at the Commanders in Chief I served under from Jan 1971 to Jan 1998. No political trends there were there?

I am glad you all can vote, and make your wishes known. In the appropriate forum, either the voting booth, or one of the political websites. Of which this is not one.

So folks, can we just pass on this, and get back to what we have in common.

See, we all are RVrs. Let's remember that.
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Old 06-28-2006, 05:47 PM   #31
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So what is the solution? Keep sending our kids and our money down the drain?
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Old 06-28-2006, 05:48 PM   #32
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Oh, if anybody stereotyped me as a rightie, nothing could be further from the truth. A leftie? Nope.

My political beliefs are best described in this David Epstein quote:
"I'm left on the right issues and right on what's left. Now that's an issue I left right in front of you to debate."

But I sure love RVing, and my fellow RVrs, never met a better bunch, with just a few grumps thrown in to keep us in reality!

Safe travels!
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Old 06-28-2006, 06:13 PM   #33
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ruby2sday:
So what is the solution? Keep sending our kids and our money down the drain? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ruby,
The solution is to vote your conscience. Fight or not, as you believe. It does not necessarily involve physical fighting or arms, I do not have to agree with you, nor you me.

But neither you, I, or any of the other extremists, present company hopefully excepted, will make a bit of difference with rhetoric, from either end of the politcal spectrum.

Like religion, it is a subject only the "ungracious and untrained by a good mama" folks debate in inappropriate forums, online or off, or in another's house.

You have the rights, that we who served earned for both of us.

Did I or my peers agree with every war or politician? No way!

But, you will never know my leanings, or most of the others, because we were taught manners as children, and tolerance as Americans.

And we were trained to vote, and make a difference, however we believe.

That is the gift the servicemembers earned for you, and our loved ones.

When we all agree on politics, we are in trouble.

Enjoy your beliefs, vote them!

But if I may, simply ask, that we don't engage in rhetoric political, here on great RV website?

The solution is right before you, just not here. It is the email address of your representatives. It is the groups you organize in the real world, not online, that are willing to work for change.

It is the organizations you personally belong to and work for, with time, effort, blood sweat and tears. Not talk. Not three line posts of a party line, from either extreme.

If it isn't worth that, and only rhetoric and flames online, I submit it isn't worth my time either.

If it is, then perhaps I'll see another grassroots movement I will work for.

But here, the theme is RVs, not slamming each other politically.

The solution is up to you, and me, and all of us, in other venues than here, voting with conscience, and as much due diligence as we are capable of, if we are honorable.

If we vote based on just three line political platforms, or tract handouts, and never really search, which today online we can do easily, well, with a little time, then we are part of the problem.

Want to win the day, it takes more than typing or talk.

Work it or stop complaining. From either side.

Get involved locally, state level or national. If it isn't worth more than a three line post on an inappropriate forum online, then I question your sincerity.

I and my peers put a lot more on the line, so don't feel offended, unless the shoe fits.

Do I have that right? You bet. See every vet here put more than labor on the line. Thank God for those that returned, and bless those that gave all, and their families.

I don't have your solution.

I only have my vote, and my willingness to work.

Anything else is intellectual welfare.

Go for it! If it is worth fighting for, for you.

My blinds are open, but not necessarily involved in guns, and by the same token, not excluding that if that is what we need to survive in a world with monsters. And folks, Monsters there surely be.

Want all of us to step back, and let you do the dirty work, when required?

And, it is, and will surely, be required. Maybe not now, but as sure as there are North Koreas, Afghans who want the taliban, and Osama and others like him, as bad as you want to believe you don't need warriors, you do, and will.

Unless you are willing to step up to the plate, and serve as that warrior, even when you disagree with the powers that be, well, that says a lot.

But working in appropriate venues, learning, and doing online work on websites to promote your views, well, that is simply American.

Go for it.

Just not here.
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Old 06-28-2006, 07:44 PM   #34
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Well said. Well said.

Forgive me for sharing a private thought with two of the members here on the forum but...could that sound be the tornado subsiding?

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Old 06-29-2006, 07:17 AM   #35
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The war in Iraq is without at doubt the biggest single issue affecting our country today. If that is not appropriate for discussion on a Just Conversation part of an RV board I don't know what would be.

The price of a barrel of oil has doubled simply due to terrorist concerns generated from the Iraq war. That means some of us won't be driving our RV's as far or maybe dropping out of the lifestyle entirely. Seems to me that pretty much directly affects us.

The problem with this war and others is that we have no clear idea why we are even there or what we might accomplish if we stay. At some point we'll have to withdraw. When we do it's likely that Iraq won't look anything like our fantasy. Those who fought so hard and lost arms and legs, or have mental problems will feel like they gave up their lives for nothing. We've been there before, why do we have to do it again?

It's not just about the kids who are in the heat of battle. We have all been affected by this war. It's costs us hundreds of billions. It's costs us our right to privacy. It's made us hated around the world. Many of our young people are dieing and those who do return will never be able to live normal lives. We are all making sacrafices. Don't you think we should demand a clear answer as to why we are there and what we expect to accomplish?

This isn't just politics it's an issue that is critical to the survival of our country and well worth intelligent discussion, even on an RV board. Waiting to vote in a corrupt election isn't the answer.


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Old 06-29-2006, 04:34 PM   #36
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Michael,
Sure is a good issue to discuss. Here as well.

As you said, . . ."appropriate for discussion."

But so far I have seen minds made up, not discussion.

The reason the price of oil, and incidentally copper, has risen so fast is speculation in the markets, and by OPEC, as a result of the vastly increased demands of China, as a direct result of their making our "toys" from computers to, well, you name it, it will guarantee high prices to come.

Oil prices due to demand not terror

http://www.dallasfed.org/eyi/usecon/0508gas.html

Excerpt from the next link:
"Second, the supply of gasoline is less than last year. Gasoline production in April averaged 450,000 barrels a day less than the year before because of production capacity still off line from Hurricane Katrina and postponed refinery maintenance. The switch from MTBE to ethanol is constraining supply as well. The net result is that gasoline supplies are tighter this spring than would ordinarily be the case."
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6375

Think it is just oil? I suppose the price of copper is due to terrorist fears too? Hardly:

China and copper
http://www.businessweek.com/investor...509_706817.htm

Those sources are market analysis, not left or right wing conspiracy websites or rhetoric.


Insofar as the cause of the current war, I have thus far read that there were no WMDs, the intel was fabricated, and that is reason enough for us to not have gone into the war, from the left. Then that we were liberating the Iraqis from the right.

Let's review the actual history of what kicked off the war in Iraq. Saddam had resisted the UN WMD inspectors, obstructed them for ten years, refused to allow them back in just prior to the war. Our President called him on it, gave him a reasonable time to allow the inspectors back in, and thus avoid an invasion by us. He refused, we went in.

Whether credible intel or not, we had intel that supported Saddam's possession of WMDs. But more importantly, Saddam acted guilty and whether he moved them out, or never had them, he brought this on himself. If he had no WMDs then why not let UN inspectors do their job. He was given a time and ultimatum, and he thought it was another American bluff. It wasn't. Any sane person would have expected him to allow UN inspectors in if he indeed had no WMDs.

I will remind you that the left and right supported that supposition in congress and the senate, and the intel at the time.

The war on terror was a result of 9/11, and we had a real victory in two arenas most ignore. We made a pact with most of the countries of the world to hunt them down and eliminate terrorists wherever they raised their ugly heads.

Do you think it was just coincidence that the war in Nothern Ireland, a terrorist war, stopped as soon as the world decided to hunt all terrorists down with no quarter? Do due diligence, and see the timing. Sure, just coincidence.

The other arena was world opinion, rarely 100% pro American, for a little while, was Pro US. And our old enemies in Libya gave up the Russian and Afghan Nuclear connections.

We will never have the world loving us, unless we fall. Like the Gates haters, it is reflex, not based in fact. More to the point it is simple jealousy.


I am not defending the President, nor attacking him. Just pointing out some correlational errors you made, which I see all the time.. But, unlike rhetorical posts, I provided authoritative industry links to support my corrections and premise.

I see a lot of leading questions asked by both sides that are flawed and manipulative. Asking if we should continue killing our children in an unjust war is the same as asking if we still beat our wives. If we say we no longer beat our wives then we admit we did. If we say we never did, then the manipulator tries to make us bear the burden of proof. The premise is not carried that the war is just, or unjust, but expected to be assumed as a fact, when indeed there were no facts involved.

I have no problem with discussion. But so far it is accusing others of being wrapped in the flag, and statements of disagreement with no offered solutions, proof, authoritative sources.

On another thread here about Will Rogers quotes I contributed my favorite. "It ain't what a man knows that gets him in trouble. It's what he thinks he knows, but just ain't so.

It just seems that everybody, here as well, makes statements that are revisionist history at best, and outright inattention to the facts at worst, when it is about this war and president.

Pro or con.

I double check my facts before I post anywhere. Because I simply can't retain all the world's knowledge. I do not know it all. But I can research it all.

That is all I meant. Discuss all you want. But please, both sides, do not take your assumptions as fact. Do not take the three line posts that agree as fact. But most importantly of all, do due diligence if you want to discuss the war, president, WMDs, etc. If you cannot debate each point, FROM EITHER SIDE, then due diligence was not done.

Premise, support, conclusion.

Another favorite quote of mine is from Confucious:
"If you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. If you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself."

Most of these threads are nothing more than emotional appeals with slogans and jingles instead of facts and analysis.

Michael your last statement "Waiting to vote in a corrupt election isn't the answer," stumps me completely.

Yet earlier in your post you state why we should demand an answer. From whom? If all elections are corrupt, our elected representatives will not give an answer be they right or left. If elections are corrupt only when your favorite does not make it in, then that also speaks volumes. You see, you can't have some elections corrupt, or even all. No absolutes, but some a bit more of a stretch than others. Just a bit convoluted logic there.

If you are not waiting to vote in a corrupt election, then what are your plans towards any action?

Most folks who have traveled extensively and learned a few other languages and are from the US usually come home to the States and realize how much they take for granted.

We don't have anything near a perfect form of government, but trust me, it beats anything I have seen around the globe.

Oh one other statement you made. It makes us hated around the world. Go here:
The Ugly American 1958 http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/fall98/uglyamerican.htm

Anti Americanism is not new:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-American_sentiment

My point is simple. There ain't no simple answers. Complicated ones with facts put many of the extremists to sleep if they listen and or read them at all. Both sides.

So I have answered your points with counterpoint, adding authoritative sources to support my premises. So take your turn, I only ask that you have some factual links from authoritative sources too. It ain't right just cause I say so, and vice versa.

Is the point to come up with solutions, do real due diligence, and see if we can come up with some things that the others might have missed? I can deal with that.

If it is to repeat the party line by rote and never even look at the big picture, either side, then it is only an endless stream of rhetoric and wasted time.

So let's have a discussion.
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Old 06-29-2006, 06:55 PM   #37
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Maybe this is simplistic thinking, but our children are still being maimed and killed.

That fact has nothing to do with my political views. And by the way, I vote every election and don't snivel if my candidate or cause doesn't win.

I do appreciate opposing views as it makes me think. It hasn't changed my mind.
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Old 06-30-2006, 06:43 AM   #38
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Ruby and Michael,

First of all let me apologize. In re-reading my post above I realized that those who don't know me online could very well read my "tone" as arrogant and I am far from that.

Your comment that you appreciate opposing views but they haven't changed your mind was my whole point.

First off, you shouldn't change your mind if you don't want to. That is your right whether you agree or disagree with another on the hot button issues of today.

Second, I never used the word snivel, you did, and I never even implied it.

My point was, and remains, that political posts usually draw out the "know it alls" who then go into a series of left vs. right fruitless slanted arguments that eventually degenerate into personal comments.

The reason the perspective of military professionals, and those whose watch is over like mine after 27 years, are so radically different than the general population's here is simply because of perspective.

Your comment: "Maybe this is simplistic thinking, but our children are still being maimed and killed."

Military professionals die, yes that is truth. They die in training without a war because, although every effort is made to make training safe, we are, after all, learning to use every destructive device known to man, and accidents happen.

Your selected group "children" is also misleading. I retired after 27 years of service. I was certainly not in the group "children" had I fallen towards the end. Although I am someone's child.

You see, today, children's parents, including now some of the mothers of children go in harm's way. As always from the time of the cavemen, through the world empires of Egypt, Rome, Persia, Saudis Arabia, Europe, Asia, Russia and today. Nothing new.

I wrote a poem about this very subject from a military person's view, and posted it here on irv2 last year.
Go here if you care to read it, I think it will show that I do not undervalue the lives of my past and future brothers in arms.
http://irv2.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1546030763/m/.../375101425#375101425

When you say our children are still being maimed and killed it implies that we are doing it. That is where military folks and civilians diverge in perception.

If you stop and ask any military professional, and by that I mean from the youngest graduate of military training and our academies, to the oldest among us, you will find that we are all volunteers.

You will also find that we go into combat and harm's way with the finest weapons, training, and support, that are available in the world.

Our military are not deer who cannot fight back.

In fact we are the most deadly force in the world. No one can stand against us.

We do not send folks into war and war zones as cannon fodder anymore. Colin Powell in the first Gulf War changed all that with his concept of force protection, and having sufficient forces in place before launching to insure overwhelming superiority. The "Powell Doctrine." His whole intent was to save the lives of his troops, while prevailing, period.

Comparing the war on terror or the war in Iraq to Vietnam is ignoring the facts in the extreme.

We never rolled over North Vietnam in a few days, and rolled into the capital in just a few days victorious, with few casualties on our side.

I repeat, we never took Hanoi.

Today our military are all volunteers, no draftees anymore.

We know that our primary purpose is to go into battle when called upon in our national interests, and that it is not a "Wiley Coyote" cartoon where repeatedly the characters walk away from bombs and bullets.

Today we are seeing military folks volunteer for multiple tours over there. Why? Because they think they can make a difference. How? Simple; they know that their combat experience can make the difference for their buddies in making it through or not. And they want to make that difference.

We don't get involved in sweeping overgeneralizations, popular political causes or personal agendas. We can't afford to practice self deception. If we do our comrades die. We are educated in history, both of war and Nation States.

Some of us have had enough access to secrets that we realize the real reasons for many things that the civilians simply won't know until 50 years later, if at all.

And when we do have intel, realize it isn't for the pockets of the rich, but in the interests of our very survival as a nation.

I am not wrapping myself in the flag. Only civilians need to do that.

When my time comes, my comrades in arms, and those who currently serve, will do that for me. After they wrap me in the flag, and just before I am lowered into the ground, they will ceremonially retrieve that flag, fold, and give that flag to my survivors, as a token of cameraderie, honor, respect, and gratitude. As I did for those who went before me. No regrets.

I AM positing that our outstanding military folks today know what they are getting into, can quit after any of their tours are up, and acknowledge that they might not return. As always, from Washington's time at Valley Forge, to now.

Many said during WWII the same thing, get out because our children are being killed and maimed.

For some real comparisons delve into the history of our occupation of Germany and Japan in post WWII. Did you know that our occupation of Germany just ended in the 90's? That during the immediate post WWII occupations bombs and snipers, still loyal to the lost cause, took out thousands during the final ten to 30 years of occupation?

What is happening today is nothing new except for one very weird observation. The majority of those killing and being killed are Muslims killing Muslims.

I say weird because Mohammed must be rolling over in his grave at the spectacle of the faithful dividing into sects and killing each other.

If we keep them busy over there, they have no time to come over here. That has been proven time and again.

Bin Laden will be found and taken dead or alive, eventually.

Now we must deal with N. Korea able to launch an ICBM to our shores, and Iran able to launch ICBMs at anybody or nation that does not agree with a Theocracy of Islam anywhere in the world.

I wish the world were the illusion we have from an accident of birth.

Our warriors know the risks, and perform admirably, with honor, and far fewer losses than ever before in history.

They will be needed continuously, as we will not ever try for world conquest like the Nazis and many before them and after. We do not subjugate, we defend.

Ruby, I wish the world was the place I believed in as a child in the 60's, where I had a poster that said that war is not healthy for children and other living things.

I have seen the world, and participated in the wars, and it can be ugly.

Always was, always will be.

I grew up.

Nothing wrong with being one of the protected. That is our biggest gratification as the protectors, and I mean no slur.

But confront any military member with a statement that they are like deer, being killed and maimed, by our government and you just might find that we are and were proud of our duty, and we do it with honor, and mostly silence in the presence of those who never knew.

Why silence? Because dear friends we are humans, and have great difficulty living with the things we must sometimes do, not because we are wrong, but because we dream about them, relive them, and are as against taking any human life as any of you are; perhaps more so, because we are the ones at the point of the spear in any war. It isn't "just a political discussion" for us.

And many of us just have problems with survivor's guilt, when our buddy bought it on the field. Or when we were in the rear and did not have a chance to help our friends. We have our demons, and bear them proudly, or at least, knowingly. It is sometimes harder than living. We do that too.

We deal with that, so you don't have to.

I too am not being political.

But our military professionals are adults, trained, and know their mission. And do it better than any military in the world.

The fact that Americans can keep their blinds closed is the greatest tribute to our military. If you open yours, you'll see us moving from house to house, and taking out any monsters we find with precision and justice, before they get to your door. Many will object. But we know.

To all my fellow vets whose active duty watch is over, and still honor their civic duties, and to those on duty now, who keep the flame alive, I have but one comment.

Huah!

Note: Sorry about the late edits, I found a plethora of typos and sentence errors on re-reading.
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Old 06-30-2006, 07:07 PM   #39
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I wrote this a few weeks ago, about these kinds of discussions, from my view only.

O Sanity I Seek For You

O sanity I seek for you, despairing of your presence,
Looking at my life anew, through past and present prescience,
Here I sit with keyboard primed and ready for the writing,
While my fellow human beings cross the globe are dying.

I can't even comprehend how it must feel to be,
Lacking even basics for our life necessities,
Powerless I sit here, for granted take my life,
While fellow beings stoically prepare themselves to die.

I am not talking killers or the warped that claim Jihad,
Nor all my fellow warriors, Those who claim to follow God
For the politics of nations, the politics of hate
Is something we've accepted since the earliest of dates

I'm talking bout the families that haven't any bread
The Fathers who are helpless to keep them from the dead
The Mothers who give children the last morsels they possess
Hoping that they might survive beyond their empty breasts

Yet here I sit as guilty, as if I'd been the one
That took away that family, put them all under the gun
The apathy of those of us, who have, versus have-nots
Seems to be the start of all, that in all cultures rots

Notice I said cultures, not our culture as the one,
For many of the others all contribute to the sum
Of the selfish way of viewing this existence through the lens
That limits our perceptions, makes us feel we've made amends

For the grace that we've been granted, by an accident of birth
For the safety that's inherent on our little patch of Earth
While we look askance at others, and say they're less than "we"
Because they come from somewhere else, somewhere "we" won't see

I sit here wondering how it came, to be the normal thing
To exclude our brethren, rejecting all they bring
To separate by colors, by their orientations
To turn away so smugly, our rationalizations.

I am not afraid to fight, We did in many wars,
But there's something that does scare me, the multitude of whores
All the lefties and the righties with their righteous selling out
Of a little bit of thinking through, a little bit of doubt.

They're the 10 percent at either end that think they're squeaky wheels,
Who make issues out of tissues just to hope we hear their squeals
Who have nothing to contribute to our true humanity
For their rhetoric cannot reflect, life's true reality.

Should I gripe about gas prices, while another can't buy food
And turn away from genocide because it spoils my mood
Refuse to look at anything that rousts me from my view
That anything unpleasant shouldn't in my life intrude

Should I put on blinders to the plight of fellow men?
If they're different colors, hold beliefs beyond my ken?
Should I follow conscience do something if I can
Or would that make me seem naïve, and less than just a man?

I write in the frustration of a man who has some skill,
In helping others locally to swallow bitter pills,
To lead them by example to a better view of life
And put into perspective all our petty little strifes.

But I feel so helpless, in the bigger scheme of things
So I'll just try to start with me, shed blinders though they cling
And see if I can make a dent in my humanity
Then join up with another, and then others ... Just a dream?

O sanity I seek for you, despairing of your presence,
Looking at my life anew, through past and present prescience,
Here I sit with keyboard primed and ready for the writing,
While my fellow human beings cross the globe are dying.

Derek Gore/RV Roadie 1962-2006 All Rights Reserved. Three rights is left.
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Old 07-01-2006, 07:08 AM   #40
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Ruby2sday that is exactly the question, it all comes down to lives and dollars. How much is it worth to accomplish whatever it is we are attempting to do?

RV Roadie, you probably thought you scared me off! We just purchased a lot in Outdoor Resorts. I was thinking more about where to plant trees and what kind of an outdoor kitchen to build once it cools off a little. I'd pretty much lost interest in this discussion.

Sadly I think that things in Iraq are about to get a lot worse. We took a country with no terrorists, but as someone said Sadam acted guilty. Iraq is now our war on terrorism. We made it that way. We created thousands of terrorist when we blew up their cities and destroyed they homes.

We knew that Muslims were more uptight about sex than Christians. So we tortured them by making them take off their clothes and pose for pictures as if they were **********s! How many terrorists do you think that created?

As bad as that was I find today's news even more disturbing. In the Muslin world women dress in bee keeper suits so that you'll only see their ankles! Women are truly placed on a pedestal in that part of the world. If this rape allegation turns out to be true that should be enough to ignite a holly war like we never seen.

The American troops have everyone's support and admiration. However, if these kinds of news stories keep hitting the headlines that too may change! I know you Vietnam vets are going to jump all over me, but I really think this is a very serious thing. Many American soldiers will die because of this rape. It's time to get the **** out of Iraq. We are caught in the middle of a bloody civil war that we created and it's getting much worse not better. It's time to let them handle their own affairs the way they see fit.

OK, I'm done I have other things to keep me occupied.

Michael
2005 Dutch Star 40 w/4slides
2005 BMW K1200LT on lift
2006 Ford Escape Hybrid
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Old 07-01-2006, 09:18 AM   #41
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vegascpl:
The war in Iraq is without at doubt the biggest single issue affecting our country today. If that is not appropriate for discussion on a Just Conversation part of an RV board I don't know what would be.

The price of a barrel of oil has doubled simply due to terrorist concerns generated from the Iraq war. That means some of us won't be driving our RV's as far or maybe dropping out of the lifestyle entirely. Seems to me that pretty much directly affects us.

The problem with this war and others is that we have no clear idea why we are even there or what we might accomplish if we stay. At some point we'll have to withdraw. When we do it's likely that Iraq won't look anything like our fantasy. Those who fought so hard and lost arms and legs, or have mental problems will feel like they gave up their lives for nothing. We've been there before, why do we have to do it again?

It's not just about the kids who are in the heat of battle. We have all been affected by this war. It's costs us hundreds of billions. It's costs us our right to privacy. It's made us hated around the world. Many of our young people are dieing and those who do return will never be able to live normal lives. We are all making sacrafices. Don't you think we should demand a clear answer as to why we are there and what we expect to accomplish?

This isn't just politics it's an issue that is critical to the survival of our country and well worth intelligent discussion, even on an RV board. Waiting to vote in a corrupt election isn't the answer.


Michael
2005 Dutch Star 40 w/4 slides
2005 BMW K1200LT motorcycle on lift
2006 Ford Escape Hybrid </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK Michael,
In my next post I agreed to your intelligent discussion and answered your premises as straightforawrd as I could, and no answer from you to what I posted about the actual cause of oil prices etc.

I don't know where you got the idea I was trying to scare you away? I made no personal comments just answered your statements with facts and links to the analysts and stories.

Then at the end of your last post you write:
"OK, I'm done I have other things to keep me occupied."

Another favorite quote of mine:
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

You will find that quote on the best website ever for checking facts on our politicians and policies.
http://www.factcheck.org/#

That link is to the Annennberg Political Fact check website.

Totally non-partisan, they take the time to research and with full support and proof, expose the erroneous facts of both parties and the actors on our national stage.

They will report errors like accusing an opponent of actions before that opponent was even in office, and even the hardest issues of our day. Like the ones I thought we were discussing.

I don't mind giving out one of my most reliable sources, because many times in these discussions folks aren't concerned with the truth or facts, if they disagree with their rhetoric. That link is one stop shopping for facts.

You'll find plenty on Bush and the others, as well as all the opposition politicians.

I just think facts further our ability to decide how to be part of the solution.

Whether you answer my comments on your posts remains to be seen.

Congrats on the lot purchase!

Sounds like you are already happy with it!
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Old 07-02-2006, 07:45 AM   #42
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RV Roadie,

I do believe you are young enough to be one of MY children. I have two great grandsons and one great granddaughter so all of the young people in the military, and some of the older, are young enough for me to call them children.

I thank you for dedicating your life for our freedoms. I just think our President is loosing sight of our purpose. He is ignoring our Constitution.

He starts a war then takes away our civil rights because we are at war. Sounds like something a dictator would do.

I have lived through a lot of wars from all of WWII until now. I feel that WWII was the only one we were justified in being involved in.
Another country attacked US.

I feel we have no business invading another country, unless we can prove they attacked us first.

We have no proof Iraq had anything to do with terrorist acts here in the USA.

Their culture is so very different from ours and their thinking is so different, I doubt we will ever come to a peaceful conclusion to this war.

WE can't even agree. LOL

We need to cut our losses and get out. Iraq is no threat to us. The terrorists we have created are.

I am more worried about China and our economics.

I am not against our troups at all, I am against what our administration is doing and from the looks of the polls, I am not in the minority.
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