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Old 07-02-2006, 08:39 AM   #43
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RV Roadie I thought about answering your questions but I really thought you already knew the answer. These posts are getting so long that I doubt seriously many people are reading them anyway.

First I think we can both agree that the internet is like the Bible you can make it say almost anything you want to win an argument. It's like Global warming, sure you can find an oil company scientist who will tell you that the world is flat and that global warming is a myth. Just because he has a page on a web site doesn't make it so, it's just a statement of someone's opinion.

We all know that the price of gas at the pump is controlled by many things. Last year when I was in Florida the price jumped because there might be a hurricane and it might disrupt distribution. It didn't happen, but the price still went up and stayed up well past the time we knew there would be no problem.

Right after Bush declared Victory in Iraq, the insurgents hit an oil pipe line and the price of a barrel of oil jumped. Crude oil as I understand it is a speculation market. Therefore the continued threat that the supply might be disrupted sends oil markets higher. Conversely when Al Jazzari or however you spell his name was killed the price of a barrel of oil went down until we realized he had a replacement.

Terrorism is certainly not the only factor affecting what we pay at the pump but it is certainly a major factor in the raise in prices. Other important factors are $400 million retirements, huge oil company profits, hurricanes, and the common cold. I just assumed everyone pretty well knew that?

The war in Iraq has given strength to countries who are real threats like Iran. They know we are stretched way to thin and that there is no way that we could do anything to them. Last week they said they would disrupt crude oil supplies which they know would send the price of oil skyrocketing.

No one really knows just how much the terrorism we have created has raised the price of gas at the pump and how much is due to other factors but it's certainly a major factor.

Michael
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Old 07-02-2006, 09:16 AM   #44
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Roadie, it was getting way to long so in answer to you second question.

I'm sure we'll disagree. However in my opinion, anytime you manipulate elections its corruption. Tom Delay's maneuver to redistrict Texas so that there are 12 more Republicans in congress is manipulation. These kinds of games should be illegal. In this case the Supreme Court agrees.

There is no doubt that the Presidential election in Florida was flawed when Bush was first appointed to office. The major flaw is that our elections are controlled not by neutral parties but by someone like Catherine Harris who was Bush's campaign manager and controlled Florida's election.

Everyone knows that Ohio played the same role as Florida in the last election. There is no doubt that Bush won his first election because Gay marriage was on the ballet. That brought out the religious conservatives who never vote and only care about abortion and gays. He also won because the Republicans spread confusion in black Democratic neighborhoods about where to vote. Do you think it was just coincidence that took 6 hours of standing in line in black Democratic neighborhoods to vote and only minutes in white Republican neighborhoods?

As a side note it's interesting to see the Republicans float out issues for their religious conservative base like gay rights, immigration, and of course flag burning just before the election full with no intention of actually doing anything. After a while you'd think they would start feeling like they've been used!

The manufacture voting machines many of you use don't have any paper back up and can easily be hacked. The manufacture is a strong Bush supporter who said publicly he would do everything he could to get Bush elected. Seems strange in a country where banks can keep track of every penny. We can't seem to count votes to the nearest thousand.

I know for some of you it's just a game, but will you think the same way when the Democrats get their own Carl Rove? Personally I'm sick of dirty politics and election manipulation.

Roadie I don't know if that answers all of your questions? Not sure it really matters as this is way off course. I wasn't asking a question about the latest rape and killing allegations. I was stating an opinion. I realize our troops are in a very tough position, however, nothing justifies premeditated rape, murder of and entire family and burning her body as it's reported. Its acts like these that create thousands of new terrorists. Our war on terror should be focused on eliminating terrorists not creating new ones.

The fact is we will "Cut and Run" it's just a matter of when. The war in Iraq is one we'll never win. It just gets worse every day. The only real question is how many of our sons and daughters do we have to loose before we recognize that?

If you asked other questions I didn't read them sorry. I'm not trying to avoid you I just have other more intereting things to do right now.

Yes, I'm very happy with my RV lot at Outdoor Resorts. I highly recommend that if that fits your lifestyle you should check it out. Here in Vegas RV parks are being sold for development. Spaces are disapearing fast. Since we want to spent about half the year here it was important for us to have a secure place to stay. We are thinking about purchasing additional lots here or in other locations.

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Old 07-06-2006, 05:58 AM   #45
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have lived through a lot of wars from all of WWII until now. I feel that WWII was the only one we were justified in being involved in.
Another country attacked US.

I feel we have no business invading another country, unless we can prove they attacked us first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ruby, can you tell me what harm Hitler did to us? I know what japan did, but what did Germany do?

If we waited till we were attacked first, Who would be left to come to our aid?

What was your first thoughts on 9-11-01? I called it an act of war! We are attacked! And the people. NOT ARMY OR COUNTRY, that attacked us are now identified.

Who are they? Killers of women and children. They hid behind a religious belief that it is ok to take an "infidiel" life and those who help him/her, even their own kind. They dont allow half of their world to go to school. They live over there and maybe next door to you.

They are a repressive and dictoral minority group that will not allow any thoughts other than theirs to be publizied. And like minority groups of the past, they do their dirty work in the night and with masked faces.

Ruby, were we attacked or not?

And if we were attacked, tell me how we are to defend ourselves against such a cowardly group of people?

A Viet Nam vet and proud of it.

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Old 07-09-2006, 05:54 AM   #46
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Sorry,
Had a lot of work to do over the holiday weekend for my company annual July 4th pig roast.

Ruby, I agree that it would be nice to wait till we were attacked first so we could appear to be the good guys.

The only problem with that is that we were attacked first on 9/11.

However, take the N. Korea situation.

Are you saying that we should not get involved until they get thir ICBMs tested and then let them launch on us first killing millions of Americans first? See, they are developing missiles capable of hitting our West coast. Under the control of a certifiable madman. No country or person outside of N. Korea disputes that.

Insofar as wars beyond WWII, Look up Kennedy Doctrine, Kennedy containment Doctrine, MAD.

Although we won the Cold war with nary a nuke fired, do not in your long memory forget that the USSR had invaded and occupied most of Eastern Europe, destroying their ecologies, industries, etc. Why? Because we did not want to follow up WWII with a war against an ally. As a direct result of our alliance with the USSR in WWII, and a really poor follow up to their communist "imperialism."

Which triggered Korea, and Vietnam.

Look up Geopolitics of Korea, and Geopolitics of Vietnam.

In the case of the current Korean situation, are you saying that you think a pre-emptive strike is out of the question because they haven't launched nukes at us first, and we should wait till they can?

Or that they are a peaceful nation concerned about their own people?

No other country has the determination to make the world a safer place through whatever means necessary. Most would wait till a world war threatened their own borders to act. We make mistakes, and we are scorned by most of the world. But what most untraveled Americans do not realize is that we are scorned because we do not make the countries we fight and prevail over, colonies of the US.

They only fight when already too late like WWII.

That was when there were no nukes, and conventional warfare was the only option. So it took a few years for as many folks to die back then as can be wiped out with one Nuke today.

My feeling on Iraq is simple. Right or wrong, we started it and we should finish it.

What you and many miss is that the Muslims killing Muslims comes from more than just Sunni vs, Shiite.

A democracy in Iraq would destabilize all the Islamic countries because all of them, Theocracy, Monarchy, Faux Democracy, or Dictatorship, use religion to keep the masses in check, much like the Christians did during the Dark ages and the Crusades.

More to the point, occupation of Iraq got rid of a heinous and cruel dictator, and put US troops next door to the Theocratic nation that already attacked us by taking Americans hostage during Carter's administration, and now threatens to develop nukes as well.

Do you think we should wait until they launch on us or Israel/Turkey/Spain/Saudi Arabia/Bahrein/etc.?

You see if we stop them before then, we can do it as we did Iraq, with no nukes as they don't quite have them yet. If we wait we will have to trade nukes at some point, and no rational free person can doubt that based on what they do now.

DO another search on Golden Age of Islam and you might find that Islam was not intolerant, in fact more tolerant of other religions when they occupied most of the Middle East and Southern Europe.

That is not the case now. Bin Laden could have been nipped in the bud, and should have, during two administrations before this President.

What we have today, is the result of past admistration's inaction when it was a match, instead of now dealing with a forest fire.

I do not propose that war is the only answer. Certainly not that the military professionals all want war or are all one politcal persuasion.

I do respect your opinions, but reality in a world that is foreign to most protected Americans, contradicts waiting till we are attacked again.

Why? Because if we do not protect them they will die. With Nukes that must be proactive. As well with terrorists.
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Old 07-09-2006, 06:45 AM   #47
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Michael,
Al Jazieri ( actually Aljazeera) is the News outled/media company that reports the news with the Islaamic slant.
http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

Are you referring perhaps to Al Zarqawi?
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/cr...ab-al-zarqawi/

That is a bit more than a spelling error. Can be checked in 30 seconds with Google, my earlier point exactly.

As far as making the Internet say anything, that was also true of its predecessor, the research sections of the library.

However, most teachers and professors refused to accept premises without support, and support had to be scholarly not selected from the radical left or right, or the UFO publications.

We all know that is the logical fallacy of common appeal.

Research involves both extremes and the middle and some judgement of where the truth lies. In graduate school, had I used only logical fallacies and supposition, I would have failed. (International Relations, Troy State)

As I quoted above, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.

Oil IS a commodity. It is subject to speculation. Speculatory swings last only a few days in that industry. As before, it went up when the OPEC meetings were held, and down when demand was down. Now China has skyrocketed demand, while refineries in the US from Katrina are still recovering. And I am not entirely sure the US oils companies aren't taking advantage as well.

I note you did not have the time to provide any links to "make the Internet say whatever" . . .you wanted it to.

You said: "The war in Iraq has given strength to countries who are real threats like Iran. They know we are stretched way to thin and that there is no way that we could do anything to them."

Umm Michael, perhaps you also did not notice that we have troops, equipment, fighters, bombers, tanks, and munitions in a country right next door to Iran, actually on their border? And resupply just South in Bahrain? Hmmm.

You claim we created this terrorism by the Iraq war? OK let's set aside 9/11 for moment. What about the first attack on the World Trade center in 1993? The killing of 18 US troops in Somalia in 1993?The killing of 19 US soldiers in Saudi in 1996 (The bombing of American barracks in Saudi)? Beirut? The 1998 bombings of American Embassies in Africa (Kenya and Tanzania)? The attack on the USS Cole? Chechnya? The terrorist Subway/train attacks in France, Britain, and Spain most recently?

Hearsay is just that.
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Old 07-09-2006, 06:55 AM   #48
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Michael,
The "fact" most overlook, in the horrific rape case, the killing of civilians in two cases, and the Abu Graib incidents, is that the only way that the free press in our great country found out about them was they were leaked the already "in-progress" military investigations. In the case of the rape and killings, the Military was aready arresting soldiers and building their case long before April when the press got ahold of it.

Please check your sources. The implication is that all of US soldiers do that, and not held accountable.

This post I'll make simple.

When the terrorists decapitate their victims, many times innocent contractors, and distribute the tapes, do we hear the terrorist regime investigating them and arresting them for crimes against the Geneva convention?

Now don't get me wrong here, I am not saying two wrongs make a right.

All through history, during war, things like that happen. They happened in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and now Iraq. What I am positing is that unlike the evil of the Axis, and the N. Koreans, N. Vietnamese, and the Terrorists of today, we find and prosecute the "war criminals" in our ranks.

Do a little research and please tell me which of your references about our crimes were not found out by leaking already ongoing investigations already in progress by our own military or civilian authorities.

If you want to skip the research, the answer is none.

Now find me the same on the terrorist side.

One more comparison. Collateral damage, and civilian casualties happen in every war. It is just reality.

Our country has surgical strike and policy that make collateral damage the absolute minimum in history. Our intent as the good guys.

Saddam, Al Qaeda, And their predecessors like Hitler and Stalin intentionally killl the innocent.

Our enemies today target only the innocent, women and children, average citizens because they cannot previl against us in a war of militants.

I'll repeat that.

We avoid the killing of innocents and non-combatants with all the might, intelligence, training, policy, and technology at our disposal.

They target the innocent intentionally with all at their disposal.

We have a few dishonorable who violate our honor and are already being prosecuted and we ignore the actions, heck, main intent of the enemy?

No one ever said we were perfect. But we aren't sitting on our thumbs either.

Personally I would rather have a decisive president who doesn't bluff, and is right 90% of the time, than a saber rattler whose bluff is called 100% of the time, or worse a Neville Chamberlain with his head stuck in the sand.

To quote a great leader of WWII, Since that is popular here:
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
- Winston Churchill

Or one of the greatest pacifists of our time:

A "no" uttered from the deepest conviction is better and greater than a "yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.

- Mahatma Gandhi

I believe that we have said no to terrorism, and attacks on our country.
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Old 07-09-2006, 07:29 AM   #49
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Michael,
If all elections are corrupt, and what you say is true, then why bother anywhere with anything? Since you aren't in Texas or Florida would you tell me how they are corrupt where you are?

I'm in Louisiana where one of our previous governors is in jail, and five insurance commission members are about to be. And we are one of the most corrupt states politically in the nation, according to many. We have a congressman under investigation as well.

Some of us are foolish enough to keep voting, and make a little headway at a time?

Whether we vote the same or not, we are all lost if we can only spout the party line, or opinions as facts.

Apathy and blind faith are exactly how the corrupt can exist. The only way. The corrupt all can be found on the extreme left as well as the extreme right. That 10% on both ends refuse fact, substitute dogma, and don't want their followers to do ANY due diligence.

Knowledge IS power. The reverse is also true.
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Old 07-09-2006, 07:44 AM   #50
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ON edits:
I keep finding typos but will stop editing them now.
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Old 07-09-2006, 08:32 AM   #51
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One more fact.

The Que'ran specifically prohibits the killing of non-combatants, especially women and children.

You claim we "created" the terrorists by our war in Iraq. By extension the one in Afghanistan.

How then, did the corruption of one of the basic tenets of Islam, and Muhammed, get reversed as early as 1993 by Bin Laden?

Oh, and of course we saw the Islamic world condemn them, investigate them, and arrest and convict them, before the perps came to the attention of the media because of an internal investigation and arrests, right?

Their culture is indeed different.

They will not criticize their own except internally.

(It is a tenet of the religion called backbiting, you CAN look it up.)

We on the other hand are different.

A problem that others depend on, our lack of national will over time.

Thank God!

If everyone is thinking alike then somebody isn't thinking.

- George S. Patton, Jr.
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Old 07-09-2006, 04:12 PM   #52
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BTW,
Thinking, and rhetoric, are mutually exclusive.

Bibliography for my answers:
"Conventional Forces And American Defense Policy"
1990. Revised edition by Steven E. Miller and Sean M. Lynn-Jones.

"The Man On Horseback :The Role Of The Military in Politics" 1988n S.E Finer.

On Vietnam: "Means Of Ascent, The years of Lyndon Johnson." Robert A. Caro, 1990.

"Thirteen Days: A Memoir of the Cuban Missile Crisis." Robert F. Kennedy, 1969.

"The Theory and Practice of International Relations." 7th Edition, William C. Olson 1983.

"The Logic of International Relations." Walter S. Jones. 1938.

In today's world, know your history or you are not only doomed to repeat it, you are doomed, period.

Revisionists won't help, just make you feel better while reality happens.

I already posted links to the relevant issues of today, from authoritative sources.
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Old 07-09-2006, 06:30 PM   #53
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm sure we'll disagree. However in my opinion, anytime you manipulate elections its corruption. Tom Delay's maneuver to redistrict Texas so that there are 12 more Republicans in congress is manipulation. These kinds of games should be illegal. In this case the Supreme Court agrees. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so!!!! Read the courts answer again. It said only ONE, "ONE" was not properly lined for the minority. Thats a long ways from the "ALL" as you so stated.

Please make your statements with correct information. There is already enough incorrect information on the internet.

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Old 07-11-2006, 06:32 PM   #54
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Richard,
Well said! Perspective demands trying to do right, instead of trying to be right.

I doubt one in a hundred read my links, or did searches on the terms I provided.

Certainly no one in this discussion, because then they would have found links from the side they prefer that they could have posted.

It is a shame with all of the Internet at our disposal, folks still overgeneralize, use sterotypes or information that is not supported by any facts, reality, or scholarly authoritative sources.

Micheal, when confronted by facts you have consistently stated that you have better things to do.

My question to you, and this is not personal, I am referring to your content in your posts, If you have no time to do due diligence in a discussion like this, that you challenged me to participate in, why did you post anything at all? How did you find the time??

In other words, support your over generalizations with some fact, and authoritative books, links, or quotes, something.

But please, don't make the error of common appeal, as in, "we all know." Or begging the question, or the many other logical fallacies you have made.

Michael, we all don't "know," some know different and can back it up, some want to discuss important issues to see if they need to change their perspective based on new information.

Not hearsay.

New information.

But, on the Internet, especially on forums, the long answers go unread.

If that is the case, and no links are clicked on, and no searches are made, then I submit it is not, and never was a discussion, trying to share what we know.

I submit it is instead a test of faith in un-supported political rhetoric.

For those who want to see, it takes a lot more than three liners in a thread for complicated issues.

For anybody who wants to see what logical fallacies are, like the ones used here on this thread, go to this link. I promise it will not be a short read. I also promise it will make you aware of the manipulative traps inherent in forum threads like this.

Once you can recognize them, it really makes a lot of real world interactions clear that were problematic before.

Go to these links for manipulative behaviors and logical fallacies. Then you won't ever fall for them again!

Fallacies of logic:
Very good description of "slick Maneuvers"
http://members.tripod.com/AttitudeAd...ooks/Logic.htm

Best site for fallacies in laymens' terms, use with above
http://faculty.fullerton.edu/cibrahim/fallacies.html

Fallacies of relevance
http://web.uvic.ca/wguide/Pages/LogFalRel.html


But that is fine.

However,
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:43 PM   #55
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Vegascpl wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">RV Roadie I thought about answering your questions but I really thought you already knew the answer. These posts are getting so long that I doubt seriously many people are reading them anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read every post tonight . The only persons backing up what they wrote were Derek (RV Roadie) and Richard. JD Allen too .
Everything else was just talking points. Derek you did a good job of keeping to the facts, and not letting misguided emotion take control.

Vegascpl wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Conversely when Al Jazzari or however you spell his name </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't this say it all! Might a person with true conviction have taken the time to get the spelling right?

Thanks Derek for the education and opportunity to ponder these lines. Enjoyed the poem too!

As far as terrorists go, I've posted this before, giving credit to a GREAT man:

"Here's my strategy on the Cold War: We win, they lose."

- Ronald Reagan

"Of the four wars in my lifetime none came about because the U.S. was too strong."

- Ronald Reagan

Thank you to all our armed service men and women who have served, given their lives to give us the opportunity to express our thoughts without fear of retribution. God bless them and their families.


Thank you again all, this was a good read!!!!

Our blinds are open.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:47 AM   #56
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To; RV ROADIE,

I see all the time spent on postings and it's all for naught.

First of all, every eligible voter has to be motivated to register to vote and than encouraged to support the candidate/s ,that they believe will do the best job as an elected official.

So many outspoken individuals, I have found are not even registered to vote and these people really have no right to complain that this or that isn't right.

Nothing will change until the masses are motivated to do something about the things that they percieve as wrong and that is to VOTE.

We are in a society which believes that others will do the work, investigating,etc., Time is not there.

Rather than espouse our own opinions, let's encourage folks to register and vote in every election and participate in local governments.. THIS IS WHERE IT ALL STARTS.

I spent 25 years in charge of a voting/polling place, and if only 40% of only the voters bothered to vote resulting most often in the minorities candidate being elected.

Our political system needs changing, but it won't happen if the majority ignores it.

It's time to eliminate the party system, we're too old/big for in-fighting that only devides us.

Term limits for all elected officials.

8 years for President, 8 years for every other
office.

The Vice- President should be confirmed as the new President because in most cases he/she has had 8 years in training. Just elect the best candidate for the new VP.

This would eliminate the constant campaigning by the current President who would than have time to serve all citizens, not just those of one party or another.

Instead of engaging in on line minucia, let's get involved in voter registration drive; encourage the young people who we have un-motivated wwith our good now, not so good later actions that this country has a reord of doing. WHAT HAVE WE FINISHED TO A POSITIVE END IN THE PAST 25 OR SO YEARS??? We still have the same enemies, wearing different masks that we started with.

This all boils down to ; unless YOU positively start actions, not words, to change what os wrong, stop wasting everyone's time. WHY?? because if we keep doing what we've been doing there will be nothing left worth changing.

LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!

DO Something==

Thanks == Aime=== AJBJRVERS====
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