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Old 07-15-2006, 07:48 AM   #71
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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." -- Aldous Huxley

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Old 07-15-2006, 03:08 PM   #72
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Since this thread started, Hezbollah (sp?) attacked Israel.

Pay particular attention to the comments that because Israel tried to make peace it was viewed as weakness and they were attacked.

My point in every post before now.

When I was in Egypt I got into a real confrontation with a local about Israel. I heard all the rhetoric, and calmly answered. I asked if Israel was so bad, why not stop on your side first and then see if they start trouble.

It took a few times for that to register. I was on a dive boat off Hurghada Egypt diving the Red Sea in 1996.

I met Egyptians who are just like us. Parents, children, families. Folks who welcomed me in their homes and culture.

But, my point is not that humans are all a part of humanity, regardless of how many of you reading this, or those who can't, disagree.

My point is simple.

I truly wish we lived in a world Like Alice in Wonderland, and all of the other wonderful dreams and ideals of youth.

We don't.

That isn't bad news, just reality.

Like Hezbollah and Hamas, if we show mercy, which the extremists on thier side views as weakness, and cut and run, they will come for us next.

Of that, there is no doubt in my military mind.


Many Americans have friends and family on both sides of today's war flare up.

Israel and Lebanon.

Both sides from here hate it all. As we do.

You gotta stand for something folks.

And you folks who want to withdraw, are you willing to get into the military and do reality when, not if it comes?

You see, the world is not America. It shouldn't be either. But it is also not a world of peace, for now.

God Bless, and I hope we are not witnessing the start of World War III.

Open your blinds now. If you don't want our young professionals to hold the line, please tell me how you intend to take their place.

There are monsters, and we ain't them.

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Old 07-15-2006, 07:51 PM   #73
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I read an interesting book 3 years ago that posited an interesting theory: 9/11 wasn't about "taking us out" per se...it was a shot across our bow, warning us to stay out of the way when the time came. Tension in the Middle East has been nearing the boiling point for how long now? Anyone paying attention has been white knuckling it, knowing that something was going to break. Make no mistake about it, my friends, Hamas and Hezbollah are here in our country in the form of sleeper cells. If they are willing to lead with flying airplanes into the WTC, what else are they capable of? Homocide bombers going off at a sychronized time in multiple malls across our country? And when it comes to it, the Israelis are not joking around when it comes to defense. They are experts at turning things around and going on the offense so this has no where else to go but ugly and bloody.

This morning I watched 15 minutes of a Discovery Times documentary called "Hamas, Behind the Mask". I turned it off soon after an interview of a mother describe a letter she wrote "beseeching" (her word) Hamas to choose her 17-year old son to be a homocide bomber sent into Israel. Her young son was chosen and killed 5 students. This is the insane mentality we are facing...a mother begging what is essentially her government to let her 17 year old son be a homocide bomber...I can't even begin to comprehend.

Trying to use diplomacy with terrorists to gain peace is a losing game as just the recent history with Arafat has shown...peace is not what they want. They want to restore the Caliphate and in case anyone is fact-checking, that's in Osama Bin Laden's "manifesto". Why that will never, ever happen is that the Shias hate the Sunnis, Saudis hate the Iraqis, the Iraqis hate Jordanians, they all hate Turkey, no one over there likes the Palestinians, either-they're just a convenient "cause" when necessary and the real reason the Palestinians are homeless is the other Arab states hate them like poison, the Iranians do NOT consider themselves Arabs, they feel Arabs inferior and hate the entire Arab world...etc. etc.

I appreciate my fellow Americans preaching peace and decrying the war and God love and bless them for it. What kind of a world would we live in if every single person on the planet screamed for bloodshed? Not the kind of world I would want to live in. But terrorism is by design warfare without uniforms, flags or countries to keep the world calling for peace when it looks like one side is "organized" militarily and the other side are just poor, unfortunate, downtrodden wretches.

Oh and not for nothing...when Hitler annexed Austria, the world clamored for peace and rational thought and did nothing, then he went into Czechoslovakia and again the world demanded diplomacy but did nothing. In the meantime, Hitler became more and more insane. We're all familiar with how badly that ended.

And heart breakingly...you never hear of a promising new drug in the fight against cancer or the AIDs epidemic being developed in the Middle East, just teenage kids being coerced into putting on an explosive device and sent into an ice cream shop...all in the name of "Hate". So please...and I mean this sincerely, not facetiously...on bended knee I beg you, find a way to get your message of Peace to them. Somewhere tonight our young are trying to stay alive while one of theirs is strapping on an explosive belt and making a video.

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Old 07-15-2006, 11:03 PM   #74
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Well said Marcia alot of us feel as you do in your choice of words bad times are ahead and we all have to hold it together to save the future for our own kids and grand-kids. If people think its just going away they are mistaken.
Like other bad times we will have to lead everyone out of this mess. Who will have the answer are the ones that will have the guts to show the leadership,we had them before and it doesn't matter which party it will be it will be with all our efforts.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:10 AM   #75
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RV Roadie, Your command of the facts is impressive. Thanks for all the work you put into the posts. The Euphorians seemed to have withered.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:14 AM   #76
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Your first post was as good, and you withdrew it, but not before several of us, myself included, were motivated by it to jump in on a thread we normally would avoid.

Very well said.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:15 AM   #77
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Good summary, well said!
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:53 AM   #78
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You're welcome and Thank you!

But my background and training had more to do with that than me. More to the point, many mentors who took a lot of time to help me gain perspectives that push for win/wins rather than win/lose scenarios in discussions, tactics, strategy, and analysis.

Believe me, they worked harder on me than I did on this thread.

The biggest lesson they taught was simple. When an answer is important, whether that be counseling a subordinate, presenting plans to superiors, or most importantly, interacting with friends and family, to always do due diligence.

Double check premises, double check facts as in this fast paced world they change fast, sometimes daily, and try to pass along what they gave me.

Whether in business, the military, and especially friends and family, for in reality, they count for more than career or money when all is said and done, 30 mins of checking facts regardless of whether I think I already know them or not, saves hours, days, or indeed a career of trying to BS my way through covering my butt.

I can't tell you how many times had I answered without a double check, even things I worked with daily, I would have given bad counsel.

Thus my Will Rogers quote.

I try, do my best, or do not participate.

That is not a reflection of me, but my debt to those who went before me.

I can never pay them back.

I am just a link in a long chain. They taught me to not be the weakest one, and break the chain that truly goes back millenia.

So I will say thanks, but have to point out that anybody can do what I do. More to the point, I am nobody.

I just had the blessing of mentors who showed me how much easier it is to do right, than be right.

We all have those folks in our life.

In the military even more so.

If my mentors were in this thread, then you'd see brilliance.

So thank you for them. Maybe they are up there and chalked one up for the kid they worked so hard to wake up.

Insofar as the euphorians are concerned, their voice is needed too, especially if they are willing to do due diligence.

We all have to take what we can use, and leave the rest, a judgement call.

But if we do not listen, and analyze as honest brokers those who have opposing opinions, we might just miss a key concept that can tie together a perspective that has a real chance of a win-win.

It does not matter if they are wrong, misinformed, or politically calcified. Or if they spend no time and parrot three liners and sound bites from media.

If we do due diligence, then we could debate their side as well as ours.

That is the mistake, right or left, of those who are part of the problem. If they consider the opposition to be the enemy, and cannot take a debate for their side, they have violated the first rule of war, intel, and human relations . . . Know your enemy! Intimately.

I don't consider the opposition to my perspective to be the enemy. Even when they are full of it, it being rhetoric as opposed to facts, I can learn from the rhetoric how others might be thinking and why.

A serious consideration for leaders in war or peace.

To succeed in a Democracy, a War, in business, and most importantly, in our personal and family lives, it takes every brain cell we have at our disposal, and taking the time to listen and then choose and act.

My mentors taught me that it takes less time to do that than to spout the company/Party/clique/family/line and then have to make up reasons we are right, instead of doing right.

We do have to stand for something, but in the face of new information, be ready to adapt and overcome.

Nor be so open minded our brains fall out, which is another way of saying going with the masses.

Sometimes it also makes us seem to be outsiders, as those who need to be right try to be co-dependent and manipulative.

Donovan and all I answered before, do not think you aren't doing exactly the same as I am trying to do.

All it takes is respect and not getting sucked into victims and bullies role playing.

It ain't me, but thanks for making me feel I "done good" by the folks who hoped I could in some small way pass it on.

Lord knows they had their hands full just trying to teach me that, so many years ago!
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Old 07-16-2006, 09:52 AM   #79
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If you served and thought the military or our leaders were/are wrong, then you choose to leave the military, you leave the "inferior" folks you think are wrong in charge of your own security!!!!!!

Put another way, if you think you are smarter than me or the other folks who chose to be professional warriors, why are you not working inside our branch to make it better?

My mentor, on my first tour in 1971, during Vietnam, said, "You see, if all the good people get out just because of money, then all we would have left are the losers."

To those who think they can do better politically, or militarily, than the albeit imperfect, but best try, that our military and leaders are trying to do, then just accept this challenge.

Guess what? All of us knew, indeed were offered, much more in the civilian sector than we could ever make in the military.

Professionalism is not money based. Thank goodness, or we would have been conquered long ago.

If you are so much more informed, better prepared, and strategically superior, then why are you not in the military? Or a congressman or representative?

If you are indeed right, then why aren't you working to make it happen, and leading your troops whichever way you think they should be led, with full responsibility for your decisions, both to the dead, the living, and history?

There is a lot of talk online.

In reality many of those that talk aren't even registered to vote. The minimum participation in our great country's system.

Fish, cut bait, or get out of the way.

Why? Because we need you. If you can, be an honest broker. If not then:

"Do or do not do, there is no try." Yoda.

Am I talking smack? I did 27 years and led, the best I could. But that is ancient history.

Today, we join or split, in a war for our very defense of our innocents, who are the targets in this war.

My goodness, even you folks who want to withdraw and isolate us, are the primary targets.

I take it back. You all are on the front line, like it or not. WELCOME TO MY WORLD!!!!


Don't complain to me, the president, or the military.

Tell the terrorists you object to their bombings of civilians, women and children, and you expect them to be held to the same standards YOU hold us to, in war.

I sure hope the current crisis is resolved without a world war.

I also hope we bomb the **** out of N.Korea's missile sites, and Iran's nuke development sites.

Before it is too late.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:53 PM   #80
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RvRoadie (Derek) wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I also hope we bomb the **** out of N.Korea's missile sites, and Iran's nuke development sites </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, Here.

I think Israel will handle Iran for us. They are getting blasted for escalating the hostilities. But imagine if Israel showed weakness, let the soldiers' kidnapping go unchecked. Like the bombing of the USS Cole.

Isreal responds like a police officer responds to resistance. Meet with resistance, force is increased at a level higher than the resistance. Most subjects are subdued. I hope we can pull back from the escalation, but it (attack on Israel via tunnels...premeditated)can't be ignored either.

As far as Korea, Clinton tried diplomacy and KIM Jong Il like a kid said he would be good. No punishment. I would rather see if our anti-ballistic systems can shoot down every rocket N. Korea tests. If that fails light them up.

It worked with our daughter. Punishment promises were always keep. Never...."I've learned my lesson, can I be ungrounded?"

One month was a long time!

It works with kids, it works with countries led by sociopaths.

I had a favorite saying in our home when our daughter was younger...."This home is not a democracy, but a republic and sometimes a dictatorship. And today, I'm the head dictator!!

"That's not fair!" she would say. "Fare is what you pay to ride the bus!!"

BTW, Patty and I have voted in every election since we were 18. Carter was my first presidential vote. I have never believed, never will, that our elections are fixed.

You know we will sound like war mongers. But it is reality.

One more quote.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free."
Ronald Reagan

"To sit back hoping that someday, someway, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last--but eat you he will."
Ronald Reagan

Oh, that's two.
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:55 AM   #81
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Good point about sounding like hawks. I am not a hawk, but have had to be realist.

I'm with you, see if we can knock them down. I also meant, about taking the nukes out early, only when all else fails. You're right, although I assumed that would be read as a given from my previous posts, it could be taken out of context with my previous posts here if someone just jumped in and didn't read the whole thread.

If they back down and allow inspectors free reign to do a good job of insuring they will never be a nuclear threat fine.

However, historically we have seen how effective that is with a dictator/sociopath who has unlimited power in his own little world.

We ended up in a war anyway last time we tried to get UN inspectors in Iraq.

Kim Jong Il also is running his country like Saddam but worse. He is as prone to atrocity, and as paranoid about assasination by his own people as Saddam was, and rightfully so!

But dictators also have an elite that knows the rules and hates them, but sucks up, to have basics like food and maybe surviving long enough to see their kids have a better world.

Who can blame them when not surviving the day is the cost of speaking out.
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Old 07-21-2006, 05:15 AM   #82
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there is or was an organization setup here that took young arab and jewish kids and put them together for a short period of time. the purpose was to let them meet, associate and play together. the idea behind this was to get to young people to do what the older ones would not. call a halt to the killing.
I dont know if it still exists today but it was an attempt. somewhere the chain has to be broken.

and as far as NK is concerned, lets wait for him to fire ONE long range missle sucessfully before we start another war. he may have nuclear warheads but without a delivery system, its a mute point. those in fear are SK and Japan. one hit there is the same as a long range successful firing and deserves and imediate answer.

for an inside view of lebanon, go to for more on this thread.

and PLEASE, PLEASE, quote the facts as I hate it when "facts" are misquoted and/or taken out of context. it just ruins the debate.

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Old 07-30-2006, 02:48 AM   #83
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That's a great analogy Jim, thank you!
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:00 AM   #84
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