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Old 01-11-2019, 08:19 PM   #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radar View Post
Are you reading a different thread? The thread is about electric vehicles, alternative power etc.
Yes, it did start that way, didn't it?
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:31 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by 17 Oaks View Post
Gosh, I hope, that said if you subscribe to Popular Mech or Popular Science about every other month there is a 'BREAK THRU' on batteries. Most break thru's from the pages of PS/PM over the many years I have subscribed have never been heard thru again.

Lithium battery. I had a change to buy a 1000 amp unit and did so, I paid a whole sale price, but I forgot it was for my wife who uses a battery in her business. She very strong and she could barely pick it up, forgot the weight but well over 100 lbs, the battery she uses weighs almost 80 and she lugs it around all the time. Toyota did use Li batteries, but they stopped, Telsa does not see to and in fact no really does or admits to. They have drawbacks.

Think you are confused, a 1000 a/h lithium battery pack would be over 300 lbs and cost close to $9500. Suspect you are talking about one of those 100 a/h agm batteries with a small inverter and 110 v and usb outputs like this one:
https://www.cabelas.com/product/Goal...B&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:38 PM   #409
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Think you are confused, a 1000 a/h lithium battery pack would be over 300 lbs and cost close to $9500. Suspect you are talking about one of those 100 a/h agm batteries with a small inverter and 110 v and usb outputs like this one:
https://www.cabelas.com/product/Goal...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

That is easy to be confused. Even on the border of deceptive advertising.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:51 PM   #410
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Here is the problem. Who pays? Do we ban people traveling around in RV's? Or do we make it so expensive that only the very wealthy can afford it? And in broader terms, if we try to solve the problem by making things that contribute to global warming more expensive that only works to the extent people are price conscious. In extreme terms, how expensive do we need to make it to get Bill Gates to cut back on his air flights? And what do those kind of prices mean to the rest of us.

You can see this in the coal discussion. Coal communities are going to pay the price if we abandon coal. People there are going to have to move away from their friends and family or live in poverty. Its a question of burdens and benefits. The notion of environmental justice says those should be balanced. But that isn't really part of the discussion around climate change.

So are you willing to give up travel to stop global warming? And if not, why should we ask coal communities to sacrifice to that end.

We just bought an RV and are going to travel a lot in the near future. That solar panel on the roof is not going to make much difference in our carbon footprint. There is no moral high ground here, we all have compromises we are going to have to make.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:10 PM   #411
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I think that the overall global discussion about climate change DOES have to address social issues on many fronts. Coal communities have been folding for a long time and will continue to. Many other communities, farming, mining, railroad, etc have folder over time because advances left their way of life in the dust. The world has plenty of old communities that are now buried or just rubble because of changes. Everything about human existence changes all the time. Presently the rate change is beyond anything society has ever experienced before and the rate is only increasing. Learn to change or get left behind. As I said a few hundred posts back: The only thing constant is change.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:16 PM   #412
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On a per person, per mile basis, RV's have to be right at the top of the gross polluters.

I doubt that is true. There are a lot of RV's out there that aren't putting on many miles at all and somebody making a long daily commute in an SUV or large truck is probably doing a lot more damage. I didn't see many used RV's with more than 10,000 miles per year and I think that would be very low mileage for the typical automobile. Not to mention how those miles are put on with lots of stop and go driving.


Your point however is, I think, correct. We tend to want other people to change their behavior so we don't have to change our own. And when it comes to politics, limiting options to what is "politically realistic" often means putting the burden on people with little political power.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:30 PM   #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RossWilliams View Post
I doubt that is true. There are a lot of RV's out there that aren't putting on many miles at all and somebody making a long daily commute in an SUV or large truck is probably doing a lot more damage. I didn't see many used RV's with more than 10,000 miles per year and I think that would be very low mileage for the typical automobile. Not to mention how those miles are put on with lots of stop and go driving.


Your point however is, I think, correct. We tend to want other people to change their behavior so we don't have to change our own. And when it comes to politics, limiting options to what is "politically realistic" often means putting the burden on people with little political power.

The key, is per person, per mile. A sitting RV, SUV, or tesla would not factor in. Yea, many SUV's, pickups, vans, and what not, are driven many miles with a single person in them.



This is a good video, that shows the effect of closing down the coal power plants. Union Pacific lost about 5% of its business, which equated to hundreds of engines being parked, and many workers getting pink slips.






And this article discusses many more parked in AZ


https://wolfstreet.com/2016/05/04/fr...ion-recession/


This article from a year earlier was just the start. A bunch of the older engines have disappeared, I understand they were sold to the scrap man.



https://www.democraticunderground.com/111668516


You are right, the prevailing attitude is as long as it does not affect my lifestyle. The problem is, people do not see the big picture, and the true costs.
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:22 AM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcussen View Post
Originally Posted by 17 Oaks View Post
Gosh, I hope, that said if you subscribe to Popular Mech or Popular Science about every other month there is a 'BREAK THRU' on batteries. Most break thru's from the pages of PS/PM over the many years I have subscribed have never been heard thru again.

Lithium battery. I had a change to buy a 1000 amp unit and did so, I paid a whole sale price, but I forgot it was for my wife who uses a battery in her business. She very strong and she could barely pick it up, forgot the weight but well over 100 lbs, the battery she uses weighs almost 80 and she lugs it around all the time. Toyota did use Li batteries, but they stopped, Telsa does not see to and in fact no really does or admits to. They have drawbacks.

Think you are confused, a 1000 a/h lithium battery pack would be over 300 lbs and cost close to $9500. Suspect you are talking about one of those 100 a/h agm batteries with a small inverter and 110 v and usb outputs like this one:
https://www.cabelas.com/product/Goal...B&gclsrc=aw.ds
Yes, very similar to that, lots of dials and ports, over 100 lbs and it was labeled "1000" so prob was watts rather than amps, forgot, been to many years for something we bought and took back.. Thanks for digging that that out.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:56 AM   #415
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FACTS:
Climate on our earth has been extremely radical over most of planets life. Times when we were covered in ice sheets from the poles to the equator miles thick and times when it was a tropical zone from one pole to the other. Often radical changes took place in near real-time, while some merely evolved over time. Our ocean's have risen and fallen over the eons and as recently as only a few thousand years ago.

The 60's and 70's mantra gave us "global cooling", the 80's and 90's mantra gave us "global warming, today is just the catch-all of "Climate Change". On the carney circuit the barker yells "only a quarter, pitch till you win". KInda seems like the story of kool aide drinkers, they will say anything to be right.

All this only becomes worse when an out of control Govt Agency is empowered more so than even the FBI, IRS or even our military in a time of war...the EPA, they literally control your very breathing.

When the solution is to tax the people of the world, folks we don't have a problem if taxing is the solution. Of course they want the US taxpayers to pay fo the world's problems. Just wonder how many of have ever spent any time outside the US not as a tourist...trust me it's helluva polluted world out there and it's NOT the US taxpayers responsibility to clean it up. Think: India, China, Russia just to name the BIG 3.

Kool Aide Facts: The oceans, temperature etc will rise (exactly) X.xx mm in 20XX. REALLY? How can you make that prediction X years from now and you cannot even tell me with any degree of accuracy whether or not it's going to rain tomorrow! In FACT, as I sit here and look at the windows and awoke to a beautiful cloudless sky over S Texas, the weather report I pull yesterday day as it was pouring down raining said it would rain today and be partly cloudy tomorrow. My wife left on a business trip and she wanted to know the weather. I told her to bring a rain coat

That said I am going to make a prediction and a certainty value of 5 9's: Here in S Texas where I am at the sun will rise at 0732 hrs tomorrow...
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:03 AM   #416
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There are just so many people commenting in this thread that can only extrapolate the future based on what the see right now. So much "this will never work", comments on monopolies, efficiencies, etc. Yet the pace of scientific understanding continues - and in fact is accelerating.

If you look back at history, those that say "it will never work" are almost always on the wrong side of history - and they don't even know it until it hits them in the head.

If anything adoption of advanced technologies is much slower because nowadays, because of modeling and simulation, along with the understanding of the science there is deeper understanding of the ramifications - and an acknowledgement of the existence of unanticipated consequences. Along with governance that's much more risk averse and a legal system that loves to sue, the pace of adoption is much less than when people barely acknowledged secondary effects like back in the early 1900's.

Example: There was an earlier comment made about flying cars and how they never arrived. Yet there are now at least a half dozen quad-copter vehicles that can carry at least one person. They require almost no talent to operate due to the integration of sensors, navigation, and control systems. Even if you could build a flying car 40 years ago (and several were built) they still required the money and skill available to only a very small number of people, thus they never went anywhere, even in industry or government.

So the flying car is here- it just doesn't look anything like people thought it would. It's still short range, and the major difficulty for adoption is that nobody understands how to manage 0-500 ft airspace very well which is holding back unmanned delivery service and a lot of other applications. But it will happen, just marginally slower than the inventors thought, but exponentially faster than the naysayers declared.

A lot of self proclaimed "experts" comment here. Experts almost always tell you what can't be done (to the limit of their limited expertise). Most have not a clue about what CAN be done. What I see in a lot of discussions like this are a lot of folks that have a technician's level of understanding. Techs are very very good at specific things - but they lack the understanding of the theory behind the science and engineering, and the lack of this knowledge shows up in their reasoning when they try to extrapolate. This is also true of many engineers who spend their entire careers working an a small specific field.

Lastly, most people just suck at logic. but here's a great resource:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf LogicalFallaciesInfographic_A3.pdf (625.0 KB, 4 views)
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:06 AM   #417
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So you don't want to use fossil fuels but a renewable that has its own problems with pollution.

They say Genghis Kahn was one of the best environmentalists ever. He killed so many people that ice cores show a marked reduction in pollution because of fewer people burning wood for heat and cooking.
Perhaps you should investigate the EPA approved wood burning stoves and fireplace inserts. There have been a few remarkable achievements made over the past 800 years.

And, once again, I never said or suggested that I donít want to use fossil fuels. I burn 8 gallons of #2 an hour when driving the coach and enjoy every minute. In that one hour the coach probably emits more pollution than the fireplace does burning a cord of wood, which heats the house for 2 months.

Thereís a balance to be found with energy production and no one source is without negative impacts. Except for the one fellow who thinks diesel emissions arenít harmful unless you wrap your lips around the exhaust pipe. There are alternatives that work, whether one chooses to believe that or not is a personal choice.

Later.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:08 AM   #418
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Interesting reading. Holland is getting into this as we speak. I’ll have to check it out next time over.

https://www.bcsea.org/floating-solar-crazy-big-idea
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:03 PM   #419
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All the power has to come from somewhere
The grid still has to supply it and have the requisite capacity
Even when the wind doesn't blow or the sun don't shine
That leaves nukes or dead dinosaurs to fill in the gap
Until "some" storage ability comes along to supply the entire grid demands
Then "alternate" energy will need to be large enough to not only supply the entire grid BUT have a massive oversupply to recharge the "storage" device in time for the next calm or storm.
Not saying it can't be done but the challenges are not in any way easy, quick or cost effective at this time

BTW, (IIRC) all the current alternate energy fields are within a short distance to the current distribution networks. No one has talked about alternate fields in areas way away from current distribution networks. What's the additional cost there?
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:07 PM   #420
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Forgot to add-
In my investigation of wind power fields it was brought up that they only generate effective power 1/3 of time. 1/3 they are down for no wind and 1/3 they are down for maintenance. So effectively, they have to be 3 times as large as needed.
If anyone has better data than I collected please chime in.
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