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Old 07-26-2006, 03:54 AM   #15
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I have spent my working life dealing with people. First in retail sales then the last 32 years as a tour coach driver.

The latter exposed me to peoples from many other countries. Each group would be with me for 14 to 21 days.
From 6am to 8 or 9pm everyday. There were people from countries that were a joy to be with and others who should have just stayed home and never come to the US for a vacation.

I learned more about their individual countries and their daily lives in that short time then watching CNN or FNN 24/7.
Fair and balanced, NOT.

We have so much to learn from people in other countries if we could just be exposed to them more. I don't mean through televisin news or news papers. These media have their own agenda and decide what we will see and hear. What THEY think we should know as to what's important. "The people's wright to know" what we tell them, is not right. We are entitled to know "The rest of the story", as a comentator say's.

Americans should hear "the Truth, the whole and nothing but the Truth" instead of what they think will sell the most commercial time. Just because a nice looking person on the TV news says something that somone else wrote for them to say, you don't have to take it as gospel.

Yes, but how do we know what is fact and what is almost fact? Here lies the rub.

What we need is the 6PM nightly REBUTAL NEWS. Call it "WE SAY, THEY SAY.

There was a British telivision TV program years ago called "TW3", "That was the week that was". It was finially taken off the air because they were getting to up close and personal with some politicans over there.

We would be happier if at 6 and 11pm all we saw was the weather, which effects us directly and the highway report.
OK, through in the Sports report too.

For all the War Mongers out there then there would be the War Channel showing todays kill ratio from every latest conflict.

"How about the news from the Colisium in Roam. LIONS 10, CHRISTIANS NOTHING".

I know, I know, we have to know who of ours is being killed today.

I'M SO SICK AND TIRED OF WAR NEWS 24/7.
We've always had a war going somewhere and it's as normal as breathing. Probalby always will too. Too bad.

Cave men had it easier.
The handy dandy CLUB.
Want dinner, use the Club. Want food, use the Club. Want a wife USE THE CLUB.

We don't need encouragment to hate or suspect. It seems to come naturally. But please, PLEASE ,don't try to make a buck by boosting our basic problems and fears.

All my writings are those of a frustrated, 65 year old retired male that wants his remaining years to be as peaceful as possible. One who is tired of hearing everyday that the world could end at any minute and a terrorist could be plotting to blow up my supply of dental floss.

1984 is now!

RVOADIE: I wouldn't wish the job of ruler of the world on my worst enemy. Then again maybe I would.
By the way, I found out who God really is. Later.
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:10 PM   #16
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lwmuddy,
Sorry but the world ain't at peace, never has been, perhaps never will be.

You have 11 years on my youngster 54 years.

Yes, we have always had a war going on somewhere it seems recently. Somewhere ain't here, on our shores.

That is significant. Elsewhere, not here.

1984 by George Orwell passed and we do not have a mechanized, doped, and compliant society dominated by big brother.

Before anybody says we do, please re-read the book. Never happened, at least not yet.

I will stand corrected happily if we can discuss and not cuss and come up with some solutions. They have to be a bit beyond our imaginations and set positions from 20 years ago.

Religion is not the issue, although a religion seems to be front and center.

Accusing Islam of being corrupt because of a fundamentalist extremist movement would be equivalent to calling all Christians corrupt because the KKK were WASPs who took the law into their own hands, under the guise of a Christian movement.

So let's get off religion as a point of discussion except for historical fact.

Beliefs are personal, religious-wise.

Historically they can be debated, as long as folks are honest brokers.

But religion has no place in this discussion, IMHO.

Why?

Simply put, if overgeneralizations about Christians, Muslims, Jews, or anybody, are made, from an extremist perspective, right or left, then we are not only back where we started, but have a bunch of folks doing the standard "begging the question," and a plethora of other logical fallacies.

If we all believed alike then those might be talking points.

We don't.

But, here, In the good ol US of A, we tolerate different religious beliefs, and do not make them part of a dialogue about state. See, we have a separation of church and state. Thank God!

Or, as in other countries, we might just have fundamentalist movements who not only talk judgements, which we already have, at either end of the extreme 10% left or right, but we would have summary executions and fanatics becoming martyrs, for whatever cause.

What makes us different?

The right, the left, the fundamentalists, the interpreters, etc. all can be called out, shown resources and source documentation, and can be confronted in public when they try the old "begging the question" and "fallacy of common appeal." (Both terms can be looked up.)

But bud, there ain't no way you can have a free country in this world without some involvements to keep it that way.

Britain, Australia, and several other countries are staunch allies in all we, OR THEY DO!

Simply because they know we try and succeed, or fail, where other countries don't even try.

So for all the anti war folks in our country I again restate what I have said all along.

War is ****! I know that, been there and done it.

If any of you are willing to step up to the bar, and put it all on the line, with a better solution, I am all ears. But only if you lead from the front, thus, if wrong, are the first to be cut down.

Talk is easy, cheap, and overdone.

Propaganda is real on both sides.

It takes quite a bit more than watching the 30 minute media news and/or reading three line simplistic posts online to be able to glean some semblance of the full ramifications.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I am trying.

And eagerly await any new info and/or research to reconsider my stance.
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:15 PM   #17
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I hate to argue with you RV, as most of what you say, I am 100% (or at least 99%) in agreement with. But.... seperation of church and state is a fallacy. It is not in the constitution. I have a copy of it. Nor, is it in the declaration of independence. Have that as well. In fact, if you look on the liberty bell, there is a bible scripture engraved on it. It is from the old testament, I think Jeremiah. It is "Proclaim LIBERTY throughout all the Land unto all the inhabitants thereof" I will look up the scripture reference later.

Most of our consititution was based on our founding fathers' christian beliefs. The idea of "seperation of church and state" was begun in letter (I will add the recipient and writer after I look it up in the book I cannot find at the moment) discussing his concern that our government would become like England and require a certain religion be followed. It was to be free for religion, not free of religion. He wanted to make sure that we were all free to worship God as we saw fit. He never meant that the government was to not be christian, just not to force any particular denomination on anyone as was happening in England. They did not want a government instituted religion. Never in their wildest dreams did they imagine that the country would come to what it is now.

Now, on to Islam. I have read some of the Koran. It says that nonbelievers (non followers of their Allah and/or Mohammed) are to be beheaded. It also says that their hand should be cut off and their opposite foot. It says not to turn your back on them because they are your enemy. Mohammed (the writer of the Koran) was a power hungry man. He wanted world domination, hated christians, and was known as the prophet of the sword. Meaning he forced people to convert.

The battle we are in right now, was also predicted by God in the old testament. When Abraham did not trust God to give him a child through Sarah, he went to his servant Hagar and had a child through her. His name was Ishmael. The story is in Genesis 16. The Arabs are the descendents of Ishmael. God told Haga that she would have descendents (the arabs) too numerous to count. When she became pregnant He told her to name him Ishmael and theat he would "be a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Sound familiar?

Now, something else significant happened here. When Isaac was finally born of Sarah and was weaned, (Genesis 21) Abraham had a feast. Sarah saw that Ishmael despised Isaac. She told Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away. Abraham did not want to, but God told him to do so anyway. God said that he would make a nation for Ishmael (the arabs). Now, that was not fair of Abraham, and I would resent Isaacs descendents as well.

Now, one more thing I want to point out is that all of this stuff happened not just because God allowed it, but because Abraham listened to his wife. LOL She told him to get Hagar pregnant and she told him to send them away. Yes, I am a woman, and I note this. The next time your wife tells you you should listen to her, remind her of this story.

Of course, I suggest you mention it, and then run as fast as you can.

Although, as a woman, I wonder how much worse it would have been had he NOT listened to his wife. LOL
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:20 PM   #18
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From my World Religions class in college, I remember the Imam of the mosque in Reno saying that Moslems, Christians and Jews are "People of the Book" (Old Testiment) and that killing them was prohibited. Also, somewhere in the class, we discussed the Ottomen Empire sending ships to Spain in 1492 or so to rescue 20,000 Jews who were in danger of being killed by "Their Most Catholic Madjesties, Ferdinan and Isabella". We need more Winston Churchills and less Nevil Chamberlands in the western world.
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Old 07-27-2006, 03:11 AM   #19
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In America we have no civil war, as so many other contries have going on a continuing basis.

I read on formums that some people here want a civil uprising to protest various government actions like allowing high gas prices and the middlease screwups.

Could it be that these and other problems could, and can be, eliminated if we had members of our governing bodies work ONLY for the money the tax payers cough up yearly and allow
NO OUTSIDE CONTRIBUTIONS [lobby money] to be collected? This would be verified by tax returns.

This, I think, will never happen, because THEY write their own laws. THEY represent their friends and themselves first and then us, if they have any time left.

It seems, since business has more money then the public they are working harder for them then for us.
The average American [I think] votes for the most beleivable or best looking candidate that is offered up.
The news media are also bought and have shown to slant things, so they can't be trusted to advise us.

Can't we gather an agency together that would serve us as Consumer Reports does to the buying public.

The poitical arena relies on the average American to uninformed, uninterested and
under-educated in what is going on.

Why else would so many people still respect a president who addmited to having a type of sexual encounter in a room in the white House while his wife was out. I presume she was away at the time.

Get someone like Lee Iacoa as presedent. A professional that is trained in money management and knows how to turn a company arround.

The government is a company.
It sells services protection racket]for money [our taxes] and has employees to run various departments. [senators and congressmen]

It services the different states and the people in each state, plus sub's out control to others [mayers and governors].

Why have we never seen a profit and lose statement from this company we support?
An actual break down of all earning and expenditures?

Until this company [America] can show a definate and large profit we will never be able to show our real power.

If the strengeth of America lies in it's people and their voting power then we can never attain our full potential if so few American vote at each election.

Why don't more Americans vote?
Because they are tired of the same old stuff [business as usual] and slogans that come from the candidates.

Who are the candidates?
Friends of friends of the greedy morons that are in office now.

That's a choice? Now really.

Can we find some leaders that will really excite the voters? Can we ever see an almost 100% of the voters actually vote.

With the amount of money that is in this country there is no reason to have poor or uneducated people.

Whith the amount of tax money we pay we SHOULD have the best representation available.

If it were not for the unbeleivable greed and consete of our leaders and business we would truly be a utopia.

Until EVERY American joins in the fight for just representation we............. you fill it in.

What ever happened to, as someone said, people like Churchill.

If we get a good Presedent don't go out and shoot him. Then we lower ourselves to that of those 3rd world countries where they have
"The Leader of the Month.

If we as American's settle for less then the best in our leaders then WE end up as less then the best.

I'm not running for President, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Have you ever heard such preaching in your life?
I must be on drugs to spout this stuff.

OOPS, I'm late for my Prozac shot. melloooooow.
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Old 07-28-2006, 09:58 AM   #20
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having been there and done that, let me just say-

its a street fight not a boxing match. both have rules. in a boxing match, the rules are complex.

in a street fight the rules are much simpler. kill or be killed. how do you preach to the guy cutting your throat?

and let me add this to those whom will sit idiolly by, when is it your turn to stand up and be counted? the score is extremists 3, christians .....?

a veteren and proud of it!

R
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Old 07-29-2006, 01:57 PM   #21
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Sandra,
"a Wall of separation between church and state" was a quote of Jefferson, later reflected in the 1st Amendment.

Amendments are part of the constitution as of today.

Arguments from any religious belief in that God intended this or that completely abrogates the concept of free will.

If there is free will there can be sin. If not then there can be no sin. Period.

Thus why religion, or religious discussion in a secular subject are avoided in polite company, and not tended as proof simply because using whatever religious "book" as the proof of its contents is begging the question.

Unless of course you have a stake in that religion.

So can we get off the religious quotes?

As well as the other posts with partisan politics and conspiracy theories??

I see a lot of folks waving flowers and peace in the air, as the suicide bombers kill more innocents. I see criticism of our policies as rational and humanistic, while the throats of innocents are cut, or innocents are bombed.

My contention is that the only answers are diplomatic backed up by military in that order.

When the biggest challenge in your life has been to play office/corporate politics, and to take your safety for granted, so much for granted that you try to eliminate those that make your naivete possible, well I have only this to say.

We warriors, both past whose watches are over like me, and current, have done our jobs well.

But, should you feel that warriors are not needed, or that you have better solutions to dealing with monsters, I simply ask that you state where and when you are going to the front lines of genocide, as in Darfur ( http://www.darfurgenocide.org/ ) or war as in Iraq/Afghanistan, and show me and the world not only your courage and committment to your cause, but how you can change the slaughter with words and books.

You see, that comes later.

After warriors have made a safe place for you to preach in.
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Old 07-29-2006, 03:34 PM   #22
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Well said RV Roadie, Well said!!!
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Old 07-30-2006, 06:05 AM   #23
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RV,

I hope you are not taking my comments to mean that I am not agreeing with you on your points on the war. I am totally behind you. Just making a couple of comments. I also totally agree that "the only answers are diplomatic backed up by the military in that order." The problem is when people think that all you have to do is to have a peace treaty or some other agreement. And "that's it, all is peachy." What do you do when they break their end of the bargain, like Hussein did. The UN just continued to warn him. "Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it again. I am warning you. Didn't I say not to do that. Don't do that." I see a lot of parents doing that today. And then their kids wind up out of control brats. If we make a deal with a country that is threatening us, we have to be prepared to follow through. I have learned in parenting, don't make a threat unless you can follow through. If I tell my child to clean his/her room, or no nintendo for a week, I have to mean it. I also need to set a time limit like, before dinner, or in 15 minutes. Then, if he/she doesn't make the deadline... NO nintendo ro a week. PERIOD. If I give in, or forget about the consequences I threatened, then the next time I tell them to do something, he/she will know I don't mean it. The other children in the family, who saw it as well, will feel the same. I would eventually have a revolt on my hands.

I feel that world diplomacy is much like parenting. Not saying that the US is the daddy or anything, but the UN seems to think that they are the parents. Problem is, when the UN makes a demand or issues a treat of some sort, they lack the guts to follow through. We have become a weak hearted nation, despite our military strength. I mentioned before the US Cole, there were also bombings of our embassies. One was in Africa, if I am remembering correctly off the top of my head. We, and the UN, sat by and did nothing but talk and try to figure out "why" they did it. To quote Rhett Butler, "frankly my dear I don't give a da..." why. The fact is they did it, and if we had reacted strongly the first time, there would not have been a second time. The first time we did nothing, other threats saw our weakness and acted on it. They no longer feared our reaction. They lost their respect for us as well. Can you imagine what would have happened had we not reacted to Pearl Harbor? (I know there is a lot of conspiracy theories on that as well, not opening up that can of worms.) What if we had not ended the holocaust?

Which leads me back to religion. Polite or not, like it or not, religion is at the root of most of the worlds evil. The holocaust was target at a religious group, or you could argue and ethnic group. The KKK is supposedly religiously motivated. The catholic church in its history was notoriously vicious to those who opposed it. In recent years, they just apologized for the execution of Galileo (again, my brain is not fully awake, will have to double check the scientist/astronomist involved). The name of one god or the other has been used to justify many atrocities. That does not mean that God needs to be left out of decisions or discussions.

Even if you are not a believer, there is a lot of wisdom and historic accuracy in the Bible. Even if you do not believe it to be inspired by God, it is a great guidebook on living a happy peaceful life. It is often studied at universities as strictly a literary work. I believe the answer to most things to be there. You don't have to believe in God to see that.

And, just good people, even atheist, would agree that the ten commandments are a great rule system to follow in life.

Back to the war, I hope you are not thinking that I am opposed to warriors being needed. My dh is a chaplain in the army. I fully back our warriors. They are needed. And yes, I do, in many ways take our peace and freedom for granted. Those that have never seen war do. I can't imagine living like those in the middle east, not knowing if I will see tomorrow.

As for Darfur. I wish we would do more there and should have been involved there in some way or another for a long time. I have wonder for quite some time why we have not done more there. Long before 9/11 those people have needed our help. I guess our problems with Iraq supercede those people's lives. Maybe Angelina should hire a militia of her own to defend the continent she holds so dear. Her beautiful self and talks of peace aren't doing any good.

Well, I have to cut my little blabbering short. Have to leave for church.
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Old 07-30-2006, 08:18 AM   #24
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"Discover" Magazine, July 2006 issue, "The Future Of Terrorism"

Andrew McCarthy, former supervisor of the U.S. Attorney's antiterrorism command post in New York City and the federal prosecutor who led the case against Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, says in the article:

"The war on terrorism is really proxy for saying what is really a war on militant Islam. If we're not willing to take on the ideology and try to develop a reformist, moderate Islam that makes militant Islam a fringe element, we haven't much hope to stamp it out."

The "Economist" magazine has a caricature showing the evolution of battle shields from caveman times, Roman, Renaissance and ending with militant Islam jihadis hiding behind frightened women and children lashed together. Telling.
Marcia
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Old 07-30-2006, 11:49 PM   #25
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Sandra,
No I did not take your position as being unrealistic in any way, nor naive.

I liked your tone and style, but just asked that we leave the religious qoutes for Sunday, or Saturday, depending on the beliefs of the reader.

However you're right in that historic events relating to religious strife are gerund to the discussion as a subtopic.

The main topic was asking if we were willing to look at our surroundings and take appropriate action when confronted with monsters. Blinds open.

Or be isolationist, as if that is possible in a world where geopolitical advantages have been mitigated by missiles and space, and ignore when others are subjugated, slaughtered, or acting against our national interests. Blinds closed.

I took no offense nor meant to give offense.

We have gone from a Bipolar world, where two superpowers have a world standoff making the possibility of worldwide nuclear annihilation more likely than small wars and conventional confrontations, to a Monopolar world, with one superpower, us. In a Monopolar world the likelihood of worldwide nuclear annihilation is much less, but as we have seen, brushfire wars and terrorism become more likely.

As we now see.

We are not the only superpower by default, nor by accident.

We did not attain superpower status by conquering and permanently occupying countries with military force and a totalitarian government, as was done by the USSR in the past, and Iran et al today with their proxy forces, such as the Hizbollah (sp) and militant Islamic extremists operating without actual consent of the people of countries where they base.

I have enjoyed your posts Sandra, just think that there is a time and place for quoting a religious work.

History, non partisan, is crucial, granted.
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:01 AM   #26
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Marcia,
Andrew C. McCarthy is one of the many sane voices of experience with a background that validates his observations. The discover magazine article is not available to non-subscribers, but here is a recent article of his that CAN be accessed for those who want to see what his position is.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjE4ODFmMmI3ZmM5ZG...NmY1ODA5YTQ3NzkxZWQ=
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:47 AM   #27
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Sandra, PS
Your grasp of world history and perspective is refreshing, as is Marcia's, Richard, Stan, LadyRvr66 and a few others.

I also did note your references to Jesus in the temple and a few other comments that told me you not only talk the talk, but walk the walk.

As the wife of an Army chaplain you hold fast to your beliefs, while acknowledging historical fact in a well thought out, well stated, and well integrated blend of fact and belief.

For one in your position, courageous as well.

I have not, nor will, let be known my own beliefs, only because that becomes a point of contention if another does not share them. (BTW, they are pretty normal, Judeo-Christian.)

Please don't take my request to leave religion as a set of dogmas out of the discussion, as historical religious fact is the core of the current crisis.

But that was not the topic here.

I also agree with 100% of your posts, not 99.9%, and respect your views. More I respect your discussing, instead of cussing, with valid support for any premise you make, even if that support is just common sense for the well informed.

Were this the place, we could really have some fun swapping research and insight on dogmatic errors and interpretetions. But, this isn't the place for those discussions, for me, in any case.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:53 AM   #28
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Stan,
Thanks and . . . Huah!
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