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Old 09-02-2011, 11:07 AM   #169
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You have to buy auto insurance only if you choose to buy a car. Auto insurance is shared risk. Have an accident or a DUI and your rate goes up. You can also choose between many different plans. Some people now have catastrophic (thanks for spell check) insurance with a $25,000 deductabe. Makes since for them
Only car owners would be making a claim for damages due to a vehicle. So, only car owners are required to buy insurance.
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:12 AM   #170
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You have to buy auto insurance only if you choose to buy a car. Many folks don't. Auto insurance is shared risk. Have an accident or a DUI and your rate goes up. You can also choose between many different plans. Some people now have catastrophic (thanks for spell check) insurance with a $25,000 deductabe. Makes since for them
Right on Lindsay! You are truly a smart Lady! It's all about freedom people. You can simply choose not to drive, thus avoiding having to purchase car insurance. Those who choose to self-insure, ie. pay their own medical bills, are forced to purchase insurance. Those that can truly afford insurance and choose to buy a new car every other year run the risk of financial ruin, but it's their choice.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:15 PM   #171
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The Chevy Volt should be allowed to exist on it's own merits and not forced upon us. The same with green energy in general. When the economics are right the cream always rises to the top. Any other option just creates wasted time and money.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:30 PM   #172
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Most people in mid-town New York City do not own a car (est. 70%).

Do the other 30% chip in to pay for their auto insurance even though the 70% are on foot?

Now that is a silly argument. However, in one sense, that's what's going on now and in the future.

On the green question: Toyota Camry (2012) will have a plug-in hybrid..They won't be able to keep them on the lot. That's more what the "people" want, in other words: market driven.

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Old 09-02-2011, 12:31 PM   #173
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GoGreen, I do not agree with blind faith in the wisdom of "free markets".Technological advances, like the Volt, often face "chicken or the egg" obstacles in getting off the ground.

I think you would be dismayed at how much of our medical technology today would not exist had it not been for government funded basic research over the last 50 years which the free market would never support.

Isn't the "free market" wisdom really the average wisdom of all consumers? And while some consumers are sometimes quite wise, many are incredibly foolish, bringing the average down.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:40 PM   #174
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When it comes to health care I can tell you from first hand experience that unless you live in a state that has manditory health insurance like Massachusetts once you are over the age of 60 you cannot buy health insurance any price. I have no health problem other than age. I had health insurance my entire life until I was 62. When I lost it I could not buy it at any price. I have it with what some of you call Obamacare! I have to ask what is wrong with every person in this country having access to health care? Would you feel the same way if it was you who was without health insurance?

As for Go Green "The Chevy Volt should be allowed to exist on it's own merits and not forced upon us."

That makes no sense. Demand for this car is way in excess of the number that can be produced. You have to put down a non refundable deposit and order one without even driving it! How is that being forced on anyone?
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:51 PM   #175
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J. The majority of Americans like and drive their trucks and SUV's and will continue to do so as long as the economics work for them. Wealthy elitists feel guilt so they need their "save the planet" green energy vehicle in their garage next to their HUMMER and Mercedes to ease their conscience. That's fine, just don't ask us, the majority to finance their guilt relief. Plain and simple. Create global warming, drive up energy cost through restrictive policy and lead the public down a false path to financial ruin. Or we could relax over regulation to a point of a more practical balance between the tree hugger extremists and the rest of us where we can have safe air, water and energy without guilt.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:07 PM   #176
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When it comes to health care I can tell you from first hand experience that unless you live in a state that has manditory health insurance like Massachusetts once you are over the age of 60 you cannot buy health insurance any price. I have no health problem other than age. I had health insurance my entire life until I was 62. When I lost it I could not buy it at any price. I have it with what some of you call Obamacare! I have to ask what is wrong with every person in this country having access to health care? Would you feel the same way if it was you who was without health insurance?

As for Go Green "The Chevy Volt should be allowed to exist on it's own merits and not forced upon us."

That makes no sense. Demand for this car is way in excess of the number that can be produced. You have to put down a non refundable deposit and order one without even driving it! How is that being forced on anyone?
Well Vegas it goes like this. Were we consented when GM was given billions in re-tooling tax credits, pension fund, healthcare fund bail-outs from the US Treasury? The unprecedented "controlled bankruptcy" leaving creditors and bond holders holding the bag while the UAW and a failed company were left whole and solvent? Look at GM's new stock, it's worth less than half of what it IPO'ed at. Is that a good thing? Sure. Sell the Volt but charge what it really costs. My guess would be $300K each. Then consider the economics of owning one. Sure if you're an ideal owner and drive 30 miles a day and recharge it religiously your cost per mile will only be three to five times the average of a conventional car based on payload and comfort. But hey if it makes one feel less guilty then just consider that the "guilt premium".
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:33 PM   #177
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Well Vegas it goes like this. Were we consented when GM was given billions in re-tooling tax credits, pension fund, healthcare fund bail-outs from the US Treasury? The unprecedented "controlled bankruptcy" leaving creditors and bond holders holding the bag while the UAW and a failed company were left whole and solvent? Look at GM's new stock, it's worth less than half of what it IPO'ed at. Is that a good thing? Sure. Sell the Volt but charge what it really costs. My guess would be $300K each. Then consider the economics of owning one. Sure if you're an ideal owner and drive 30 miles a day and recharge it religiously your cost per mile will only be three to five times the average of a conventional car based on payload and comfort. But hey if it makes one feel less guilty then just consider that the "guilt premium".
How about backing up those statements with some facts. How do you arrive at your cost of $300,000? That makes absolutely no sense.

I estimated my cost to drive on and think it would save about $4 to $5 dollars per day, but that is only because I'm already driving a Hybrid. That's not much until you multiply that by 360 days in a year. Of course if your truck gets less that 30MPG average your savings would be much higher. Personally I have no need for a truck or SUV. If you haul around a ton of cargo all day or have 10 people in your SUV all the time then this is not an option.

Personal I prefer to breath clean air! I guess if smog is your thing I can't argue that. That has nothing to do with a guilt premium. It's a personal preference I like to breath, and I want to live a few more years.

You are talking about the loan that was giving to the US auto makers. That must mean you prefer non-US made cars, just like your oil? That money is being repaid. The current figure is about $14 Billion. If we hadn't done it we would be paying unemployment for the millions who would have lost their jobs. Are they repaying that money? What about the Billions we give in subsidies to the Oil companies and other corporations that pay little or no taxes and make Billions? It's a lot more than $14 Billion and it will never be repaid? Why aren't you against that?
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:35 PM   #178
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Maybe this WSJ article that they ran in June can help with understanding what I was trying to say.

David Skeel: The Real Cost of the Auto Bailouts - WSJ.com
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:06 PM   #179
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How about backing up those statements with some facts. How do you arrive at your cost of $300,000? That makes absolutely no sense.

I estimated my cost to drive on and think it would save about $4 to $5 dollars per day, but that is only because I'm already driving a Hybrid. That's not much until you multiply that by 360 days in a year. Of course if your truck gets less that 30MPG average your savings would be much higher. Personally I have no need for a truck or SUV. If you haul around a ton of cargo all day or have 10 people in your SUV all the time then this is not an option.

Personal I prefer to breath clean air! I guess if smog is your thing I can't argue that. That has nothing to do with a guilt premium. It's a personal preference I like to breath, and I want to live a few more years.

You are talking about the loan that was giving to the US auto makers. That must mean you prefer non-US made cars, just like your oil? That money is being repaid. The current figure is about $14 Billion. If we hadn't done it we would be paying unemployment for the millions who would have lost their jobs. Are they repaying that money? What about the Billions we give in subsidies to the Oil companies and other corporations that pay little or no taxes and make Billions? It's a lot more than $14 Billion and it will never be repaid? Why aren't you against that?
Simple. Just include R&D with the sales figures of units sold to date. As for massive layoffs and unemployment benefits (paid by employers not taxpayers by the way) that fallacy was debunked in the WSJ article posted above.

As for the billions we "give" to oil companies ? Give? You've been duped sir. A tax credit or accelerated depreciated tax deduction is not giving anyone anything. It just means you reduce or extend a tax liability. If anything it would be wiser for the government to "invest" in domestic production of fossil and nuclear fuels tech than in the Chevy Volt, we'll need these resources to generate electricity to meet demand.

It's the company's money, they created it through their business practice. Uncle Sugar did not create this wealth. The US oil industry gets about 8% return on their investment and pay the most in corporate taxes, not to mention the jobs they create. Google gets 300%+ ROI, pay little in taxes and employ few (just an example).

Look I like to breath too. Our air and water quality is among the best of any industrialized nation. The EPA has declared carbon dioxide as a pollutant. A pollutant?
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:15 PM   #180
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Look if a Volt works for you than by all means buy one. Just keep in mind that we all chipped in to make it affordable for you. Yes you are welcome. Don't mention it...it's OK...no..no..that's all right...God Bless you....
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:30 PM   #181
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Well Vegas it goes like this. Were we consented when GM was given billions in re-tooling tax credits, pension fund, healthcare fund bail-outs from the US Treasury? The unprecedented "controlled bankruptcy" leaving creditors and bond holders holding the bag while the UAW and a failed company were left whole and solvent? Look at GM's new stock, it's worth less than half of what it IPO'ed at. Is that a good thing? Sure. Sell the Volt but charge what it really costs. My guess would be $300K each. Then consider the economics of owning one. Sure if you're an ideal owner and drive 30 miles a day and recharge it religiously your cost per mile will only be three to five times the average of a conventional car based on payload and comfort. But hey if it makes one feel less guilty then just consider that the "guilt premium".
GG, No, you were not consented about the tax credits, your elected representative was consented and apparently the majority voted in favor of the tax credits. Your estimate of the actual cost of the VOLT has gone up considerately, from $100,000 to $300,000. You seem to play rather loose with your figures. Maybe you should give the rest of us some insite on just where you get them.
Have you driven a VOLT yet? Most people that have driven them are very impressed with their drive and comfort.
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:40 PM   #182
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I am so glad I dropped out of this conversational, Getting real deep. I hope the 125 folks who actually bought the Volt last month (with 600 left on dealer lots) really enjoy them.
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