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Old 12-08-2011, 07:48 AM   #253
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Thanks for the facts, I gave up on the thread when it derailed about page 2.
I bought my Volt in the first week of Jan so I am an early adopter with a VIN under 400. The first 6 months I bought zero (0) gas. I then decided that I needed to travel out of county and see what it could do "out of town." Went on about a 500 mile round trip where I got almost 50 mpg. To date I've only purchased 36 gals of gas.

It may not pencil out or even be cheaper but there is some less oil bought from the people who hate us. EV cars don't work for every occasion or person but any reason to hate those who it does? It takes all kinds of cars (and coaches) to fill the freeway.
So glad to hear that the Volt is working great for you. It is pretty much as I would have expected. I guess there are those who just love to throw their money down the oil pit and those who want to go a better way. With any new technology, there will be some problems to overcome. But, it is still the better way to go.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:01 AM   #254
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I was enjoying this thread because I thought the Chevrolet Volt is a worthwhile vehicle even if it may have some faults and corporate baggage. This is one of the very few discussions that I have reluctantly "un-subscribed."

Good luck.
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:44 PM   #255
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This is not a slam, but for those that think they're really reducing how much oil-related products they consume from foreign powers, may want to take a close look how your electricity is generated.

In the PNW, we use Hydrolelectric, but its capacity is being neared as no new hydro will be allowed to be built and they're tearing out dams, so in place of that they have wind mills which only generate power part of the time, but the bulk remainder comes from burning a natural gas (Also created from the same place as that evil oil) in turbines.

Also, when did Canada become a country that hated us, since they're where the bulk majority of our Oil comes from....
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:48 PM   #256
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This is not a slam, but for those that think they're really reducing how much oil-related products they consume from foreign powers, may want to take a close look how your electricity is generated.

In the PNW, we use Hydrolelectric, but its capacity is being neared as no new hydro will be allowed to be built and they're tearing out dams, so in place of that they have wind mills which only generate power part of the time, but the bulk remainder comes from burning a natural gas (Also created from the same place as that evil oil) in turbines.

Also, when did Canada become a country that hated us, since they're where the bulk majority of our Oil comes from....
A couple of points.... If one was concerned with oil being used to generate electricity, simply add some solar panels to the roof of the house and send the excess electric to the power company to reduce your electric bill. It would give me lots of warm fuzzies to have the electric company send me a check every month for the electric I sold to them.....

As far as natural gas goes, there are abundant supplies in this country. So much that we may be exporting it because we can not use it all. There are a lot of new millionaire land owners in the North East US from the gas drilling leases on their land. All that natural gas could be used to run trucks/cars. The big problem is the infrastructure to pump it. It will take a big investment to add all those natural gas pumping station to the existing gasoline stations.
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:44 PM   #257
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A couple of points.... If one was concerned with oil being used to generate electricity, simply add some solar panels to the roof of the house and send the excess electric to the power company to reduce your electric bill. It would give me lots of warm fuzzies to have the electric company send me a check every month for the electric I sold to them.....

As far as natural gas goes, there are abundant supplies in this country. So much that we may be exporting it because we can not use it all. There are a lot of new millionaire land owners in the North East US from the gas drilling leases on their land. All that natural gas could be used to run trucks/cars. The big problem is the infrastructure to pump it. It will take a big investment to add all those natural gas pumping station to the existing gasoline stations.
on natural gas: i agree with you. why are we not subidizing conversion to natural gas?. it seem obvious we should be moving ahead on
Boone Pickens plan for natural gas trucks. Is because the green lobby is against all hydrocarbons??

on solar: solar has a dim future because it doesn't pay. have you noticed that that taxpayer supported solar politically correct company took the money and then went out of business.

on electricity: the last i heard 75% of US electricity is from hydrocarbons.
so when you volt owners plug in, you are creating CO2.
sorry
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:21 PM   #258
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Looks like the higher ups are going to make sure we don't get anymore oil from Canadians.
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:25 PM   #259
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I think it's naive to think our kids are in the -stan countries to promote freedom. If so let's send them to Canadia-stan and free their oil. They are alot more friendly.

CNG is a great fuel for fixed route vehicles but that's about it unless you want to drive a giant tank on wheels.
Pretty soon we will eat what we grow ie some places will grow and burn E85, some natural gas, some wind electric. There is no silver bullet.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:10 PM   #260
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Actually once power is generated it has to be transmitted to the end user, energy is lost during this process as heat. More energy is lost through the charging process and a battery is never 100% efficient and neither is the electrical motor. The metals used in the batteries are expensive heavy metals and there is significant cost and energy related to its production.

Is a Volt green, probably not.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:34 PM   #261
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Thank you someone finally gets it.. A electric car is so far from green its ridiculous but people don't see the coal burning to make the power plants run to make electricity.... Not only that what about the batteries that need to be made and disposed of and all the chemicals used to make them ... Now all the GREEN people need to check the carbon foot print.....
Yeah ... unlike us rv-ers ... burnin' all that diesel, gasoline, propane and electric coal in support of this lifestyle choice. Our carbon footprint is not insignificant.
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:26 PM   #262
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Sorry a few more misconceptions. They need for someplace for the electricity to go, because as stated it cannot be stored per se, charging electric cells off peak is a good place to normalize the grid rather than full on during the day and reduced capacity at other times.

There is a good bit of talk to take the high grade vehicle batteries and after their transportation life combine them into neighborhood cells to charge off peak and peak shave during the day to condition our air heat/cool. I'm old enough to remember before air conditioning and don't think many people will go back.

I rather like the idea of electric school buses to where during off season they are electric sinks to solar charge during the day to peak shave air conditioning in the afternoon and charge night off peak when wind is at it's best. The irony is that wind is most prevalent at night when electricity has the least place to go.
There is no one easy answer, there is/has to be a balanced approach to providing the needed energy demand of the energy pigs that we've become.

I'm old enough to have worked on equipment that was started by white gas, ran on coal oil. Dual fuel Butane, propane, natural gas, diesel ignited natural gas, methanol, ethanol, gas/electric hybrid and hybrid electric diesel trucks. So combining different energies to make things go is nothing new.

What will be interesting is to see the amount of moaning when they put hybrid electrics in our coaches. The technology is currently out there. Perhaps I'll remember and post at the next "what do I need to do to get better mileage in my coach?" thread.

I misstated before.. there is no "green" bullet to solve everything. Gas and diesel are pretty darn good and we're used to it. It will continue to evolve. I'm also old enough to remember .19 cent gas and could have never imaged 45 mpg and Partial Zero emission vehicles. Also remember first time seeing .85 cent gas, we all piled out and took pictures and thought the world would spin off it's axis if it ever broke $1.
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:35 PM   #263
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Read an interesting article last week about one of the solar companies switch to liquid NaCl, supposedly it eliminates the cyclic effect is solar power.
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Old 12-09-2011, 07:09 AM   #264
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[
Are there any other questions you would like answered with facts and not conjecture or wild accusations?
Yes... I have a question.

Once the battery runs out, does the generator recharge the batteries, or does it merely drive the electric motor (like a diesel electric train)?

I have read conflicting information on this and would like the straight skinny from an actual owner.
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:16 PM   #265
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The short answer is.. kinda. I found this best states it and found to be
true in the wild. Electromotive technology (in trains) has been around
for quite some time.

The battery is recharged by the engine, but only as little as possible.
The point is to avoid petroleum use and charge primarily off of the
grid. No real reason to charge on gas if I can make it home to charge
off peak at a lower rate.

Here’s how it works.
For the first 35 (or so) miles, the fully charged battery (80% state of
charge) powers the electric motor. Regenerative braking can help
recharge the battery to a certain extent.

When the vehicle drives past 35 miles, the battery reaches a 30% or so
state of charge. So called “the customer depletion point”,
preventing the battery from going below that sustains the batteries
longevity. Lithium-ion cells don’t survive as long when they are deep
discharged, and GM has the goal of 10 years/150,000 miles.
At the customer depletion point the combustion engine fires up and
operates at one of several optimized fixed RPMs. The engine turns the
generator, producing electricity.

The electricity, at around 50 kw, serves primarily to propel the car.
As the driver drives, there may be times when more electricity is made
than the motor needs. Guess where that goes? The battery of course. GM
doesn’t want to waste energy or unnecessarily use petroleum. As well
the regenerative brakes opportunistically may put charge back into the
battery.

The generator does not fully recharge the battery. It doesn’t make
any sense to, for then you would be using petroleum to travel. The goal
is to use the electric grid, so the car will carry on at approximately
that 30% state of charge until the driver can get to an outlet and then
fully recharge. Without recharging at an outlet, the car could drive
indefinitely using gas and refills, but doing so would defeat the whole
point of petroleum displacement. It may be useful on the occasion when
a long continuous drive is necessary though.

There may be times when generated electricity so far surpasses the
needs of the car (i.e. a long downhill), that the battery level might
get high enough to let the ICE cut off. If it does occur, then as the
drive continues and the 30% level is reached again the ICE will turn on again continuing the cycle.
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Old 12-10-2011, 12:37 AM   #266
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Excellent explanation!

Thanks for taking the time to write it up.
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